The Wise Why

Good morning and welcome to The Wise Why. This morning, I am joined by Anthony O’Donovan, and Anthony and I discussed in depth whether we should actually go live this morning due to the news last night. I mean, we cannot walk away from it. You know, the Queen died and it is incredibly sad, but also, may I say, inevitable that she would die. Anthony is here as a leadership mentor and coach, and she was a powerful leader. She was an inspiration to many women and also men. So your AR forces so many people out there. So, yes, we are going to go ahead with the Wise Wire this morning and respectfully to the Queen, and I shall now pass to Anthony.

Thank you very much, Kirsty. Well, firstly, thanks for the welcome and just to echo your sentiments—as you said—that’s with a heavy heart. I don’t want to dwell on it too much, but listening to the radio this morning, the DJ was actually celebrating the life and really picking out some of the key traits. As you say, she was an incredible leader—humility, wit, wisdom—all of that good stuff. So I hope some of those things will come up today, to be honest with you.

Yeah, well, I’m sure they will do because when I first—and this is what people don’t really know about you—when I decided to set up a mutual friend said, “You’ve got to speak to Anthony,” and we had a conversation at that point. I think it took us another two years to realize that we’d actually spoken. I really do love that. And of course Alex still laughs to this day going, “How could you forget?” But I’d love people to understand why Alex suggested that I should speak to you.

Well, I mean, I guess you should in some respects ask Alex that question. So Alex is somebody who I had the pleasure of working with as part of a leadership development programme. What I loved about working with Alex is we had conversations outside of the learning environment. I should say this was pre-pandemic, so this was done face-to-face—but we’ll come on to that later on, I’m sure.

Alex is one of those people I love working with because it’s all about the application and the transfer of learning. So we built up a really good mutual working relationship. As a very experienced leader—and I’ll say about Alex—it was a programme designed initially for people who are emerging leaders. He could very much have said he’d done this before; indeed he had done other programmes before we added loads to it. Those are the types of clients I love working with.

So we built up a good rapport and off the back of that that’s why he suggested you and I have a conversation—and he was right because you did give me some really good advice. And of course you’ve been like this heartbeat over my last two years by us passing; along the way I’ve attended seminars you’ve delivered and learned some incredible insights and wisdom.

What I really liked was sometimes you just touched on something I already knew—and I think you’ve just said that about Alex—you touched on stuff that I knew but had forgotten; needed to be reignited—and I do that with my clients.

So why and how did you set up—let me get your name right—Donovan Training Associates? It’s snappy, isn’t it?

Yeah! I didn’t have a marketing professional in my life at that time, so we’ll go with the surname.

Why did I set up Donovan Training Associates? If I go back a little bit—and this links into the why piece here—ever since I can remember I’ve always wanted to be a teacher; a primary school teacher in fact. Pretty much every teacher I spoke to—with one exception—tried to put me off.

It got to the stage where I’d done my A levels; all my friends were going to university; I didn’t really want to go but didn’t have the kahunas (courage) to do anything else. So I got myself a law degree and thought no—I still want to be a teacher.

At that time there was a surplus of teachers—particularly primary school teachers—which is hard to believe now. Everybody seemed to be pushing me away from teaching; that’s when I started thinking about learning and development for adults as opposed to children.

I had the good fortune of walking into Reed—a national recruitment agency—which saw something in me: potential. They said they were going to teach me how to sell—a nurturing development piece—they stretched me but recognized my desire or potential talent for learning and development.

They paid for me to do another degree—I can’t think of many organisations that would map that out nowadays—but from my point of view it meant hitting my numbers which luckily I did; putting in my end of the bargain.

I developed great working relationships at Reed; got my CIPD HR degree; thought “I want to use this” because managing people fascinated me—but my manager at the time was brilliant yet going nowhere.

So for this conversation—let’s call it a business plan—the reality was it was just a scrap of paper sent up saying “We should set up an office in Banbury where I lived.” To my delight—and horror—they said okay: put me in a service office; hire a couple people; if numbers hit target we’d open on the high street.

It was daunting; my first aha moment: turns out I’m lousy at managing people—I didn’t have a clue! No structure; lots of well-meaning people but all about numbers.

I distinctly remember sitting in meetings with profit & loss accounts blagging through without knowing what columns meant! But through perseverance, hard work, luck—we hit magic number: congratulations you’re manager; we’re opening on high street!

I took big breath put on tin hat saying “I don’t want job.” What I wanted was filling gap: people moving from single contributor roles into first-line management roles—we hire them because they’re good at day job not necessarily great leadership potential.

How many potential leaders are we missing? Maybe not top performers but have other skills? To my delight Reed created role for me: moved me into their business school in Cotswolds—a horrendous 17th-century manor house with deer park free food nicest people ever—but frankly purgatory how did I cope?

Given free rein with talented team—not just me—to create leadership programme from ground up; went on winning national training award—immensely proud!

I’m conscious this is long answer but all links into why set business up: spent five or six years in amazing place then stopped getting imposter syndrome.

When telling people this they look surprised because imposter syndrome often has negative connotations—not good thing—but rightly or wrongly perceive differently: imposter syndrome means you’re getting out there stretching yourself doing something different.

Felt maybe other organisations could learn from me but also share knowledge—that’s 17½ years ago—I thought six months trial—still making it up all these years later!

I love that you see imposter syndrome as positive—I do too! It pushes us out there even though sometimes crippling—I overcame mine early setting up Opening Doors KVDB—I looked at fear asked how navigate through it!

You inspired many people—I’ve sat in your coaching sessions—sometimes just touching on stuff like Excel columns which can feel daunting for many who suddenly face spreadsheets or P&L without experience—that’s where imposter syndrome hits—but guess what? You can master it because you have!

Well master’s strong word—always room for learning—you & I chatted earlier about tech setups—I scribbled notes—that’s best! Every day’s school day which is great!

If asked what would tell myself 20+ years ago: probably went into role thinking “Because title says so must know everything.” When leading team you’re put on pedestal whether like it or not—perception you should know everything—and if let others fail then failed yourself.

As consequence try fixing everything exhausting grossly unfair doesn’t develop people either!

That’s why imposter syndrome healthy after event—even if deeply uncomfortable at time—you make decisions best judgment possible amid uncertainty—that’s what makes life interesting exciting helps us grow develop then pass experiences on.

I love your thoughts on decision-making—it’s critical! Deciding means action whereas sitting fence leaves pain washout area!

I built website in 11 days—Jala who helped said “You’re so decisive.” No deadline forced decisiveness—to meet deadline before daughter’s summer holidays so no time!

Same with marrying Dennis—decisive moments easier than fence-sitting! Thoughts?

For me took two & half years talking self in & out starting business—I recall sitting pub Easington Banbury area friend Steve who said “If talking possibility business bore me unless do or move on.”

Aha moment realizing hadn’t been decisive enough—we talked what could stop me—no kids then which now blessed us—but still brave!

Some jump straight in—I admire decisiveness others take longer—but worst thing is doing nothing especially leadership-wise causes rumors toxic environment which impacts more than realized.

Been on receiving end—it’s tough glad touched on that topic today!

Who helped you? We mentioned Alex who kicks butt (literally) – anyone else?

Too many! Start family: dad passed recently massive inspiration & mate worked L&D corporate environment maybe wished doing what do now taught communication respect tough calls respected despite unpopularity funeral testament how helped many.

My wife made career sacrifice enabling me run business never lost on me foundational support!

Day-to-day blessed clients globally brings cultural insights—for example coaching New Zealand early hours remote farm setting completely different perspective learning while coaching him too!

Variety broad answer too many names risk offending missing others!

Also reengaged networking last 18 months found Open Doors—a different type networking member-only & guest sessions CPD showcases about 20+ attendees like private boardroom missed until had it important support & learning source glad mention as met here face-to-face thanks Nat Kat Karen inviting me fell love Open Doors supportive community including Sharon Kathy upcoming guests wonderful network experience especially post-pandemic appetite back coffee chat missed during lockdowns

Did pandemic change things? Massively yes terrible but watershed moment

Was Houston March 2020 delivering workshop flights booked hotels commitments felt ought go then European travel banned rushed airport surreal landed Heathrow cancellations five months work lost allowed 24 hours self-pity blamed jetlag called clients offered help not selling light bulb moment

Created online learning solutions always wanted online offering never time cup full flipped traditional full-day training into three two-hour chunks spaced days apart improved focus attention reflection application outcomes

Virtual face-to-face less disruption better work-life balance lunch wife lovely side effect

Good point average concentration 90 minutes Hitchcock? Need breaks essential

By way menopause brain hot flush joys avoided questions today though men suffer too appreciate support male friends love you guys now your turn ask anything no menopause today maybe future topic as male perspective tricky questions

Biggest learnings setting business original plan mostly correct initial sales training ideas conflicted by qualifications didn’t offer sales training but serve copy video marketing strategy evolved public speaking camera structured realigned original plan dropped cold calling hated DMs felt punting evolved KVDB positioned well biggest lesson get wrong skewed then right fluid adaptable plans better than rigid annual fixed ones coaching clients 90-day goals personal professional work-life balance highlights keep motivation

Often heard “You can’t do that” family show avoid explicit phrases view as lack permission or opportunity advice do you be authentic leadership back Queen’s authenticity respected worldwide tributes inspiring final note

Thank you so much for your time thanks agreeing go ahead interesting conversation appreciated Cheers everyone!