The Wise Why

Kirsty van den Bulk

Hello and welcome this morning to the wise why where I am joined by Mark Franklin and Mark’s Journey is really, really interesting. And for anybody who has to face their fears, this is the man and this is the episode to listen to. But as usual, the show is not about me. It is about my guest. So as everyone bored of hearing my voice mark straight over to you.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Introduce yourself.

Mark Franklin

OK, thank you, Kirsty. It’s lovely to be here. I am mark. I am husband to the amazing Hannah, father to two brave and brilliant growing up daughters and a puppy who might introduce herself at some point because she’s a bit crazy. Musician drummer. But my main thing is that I am the 4th peers guy. So I’m speaker mindset expert, business strategist. I work with business owners and their teams to help them explore and embrace what I call the four fears of business ownership, those most common hesitations, or. Interruptions that could be preventing them from achieving the. Success you deserve. Essentially, it’s kind of. Helping them remember how incredibly they. Good. They are at what they do.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Cool. Could you explain a little bit more about cause we all get fears. I mean, I’ve written about this in my blogs, you know, I’ve talked about how I crocheted a jumper. Interesting enough, I’m crocheting a new one right now. So maybe there’s a fear going on, but I crochet when I’m trying to avoid and I find that fear makes me avoid things. So I wonder if you could. Explain a little bit more about the four fears and how you help people.

Mark Franklin

Sure. The avoidance thing is actually very interesting. And yeah, that plays very much into the fears kind of overlap. So very quickly if I can, that the four fears just go through them. First fear is that fear of not being ready, which many people will immediately recognise as sort of perfectionism. This idea of I’ve got, you know, wonderful project service thing that I. Wanna. Give out to the world. I’m really excited about it, but I can’t. Do it just. Yet because it’s not perfect because you know, but spend a bit more time on the typeface and change the colour of the website and you know blah. Blah blah blah blah. It’s. Procrastination to some extent. It’s delayed tactics. When you dig a little bit deeper, what you’re actually saying when you’re talking about it’s not ready and I’m not ready is the second fear, which is the it’s not good enough. I’m not good enough. Imposter syndrome. The kind of comparison itis looking sideways. There’s other people who do this. They’re so. Much better than me. I don’t think you know I’m good enough. I haven’t got the skills yet going back to. The I’m not ready. And so I’m going to resist the bravery required to go. And do that thing. 3rd fear, which is the one that kind of makes me smile a little bit, is that I don’t have enough time. And the reason that one makes me. Smile is because. In a very dismissive way, you can say it’s never about time there, about time you you could slip into that slightly toxic positivity of time management. You know Beyoncé. He’s got 24 hours in the day, just like you. She gets to do all these amazing things. Why can’t you? That’s unhelpful. The thing with when you say I don’t have enough time. And often that’s the first thing that people say if. You if I. Was to sort of, you know, ask somebody which of these four foods resonate with you. I don’t have enough time as well that people typically put their hands up first because it invites less challenge. It invites less vulnerability and it’s easy to say I don’t have enough time. That feels like a practical kind of issue. You’re not going to start challenging me on that. But when you actually do dig into the OK. What is it you are doing with your time? What is it you should be doing with your time? Most people know the answers to that they know there are things that you know are probably more important or have more value that they’re putting off. Why are you kind? Of like you say. Avoiding that’s when you dig back into the it’s because I have that fear of not being good enough. I don’t think it’s ready yet. And. So. They all start sort of playing into each other and that’s where the conversation gets interesting. The 4th fear. Which is the one that hangs over them all. Is that fear of failure, that what if I get it wrong? What will people think of me? Are just reflecting on all four. Once again the I’m not ready. It’s not ready. The I’m not good enough. Is essentially somebody saying if I do this thing now, knowing that it’s not as good as I would like it to be, knowing that I’m not as good as I would like to be, knowing that I haven’t spent enough time. On it, as perhaps I think I should. It’s bound to fail. And how will that make me look? And those are in essence. So the four most common hesitations that have come up time and time again with the people I work with.

Kirsty van den Bulk

It’s it’s fascinating. And of course it’s really interesting listening to you talk about it because as as someone who’s got dyslexia, I can’t have perfection. And I remember. Almost crippling, crippling me when I was a teenager. Then I found out I was dyslexic and that free freeing of finding out when I was 37 that I was sexy. Therefore perfection is something that I’m never going to get. Really freed up my fear. It completely changed the way that I do things, so I know that my stuff is always done and not perfect. The amount of people who e-mail me and go. Are you aware there’s a? Typo in this and like thanks you can stay. 2. Yeah. So with the fears and everything, where did it come from? Where did you come along to cause? You weren’t always the this keynote speaker. Talk about how to face your fears. The the let me get this correct. I don’t wanna get it wrong. The full fears you you weren’t just here. This didn’t just suddenly happen there. And the people will think this. That you suddenly materialise as this guru and you’ve got the you you’ve suddenly got there. It’s overnight success. But it’s not like that, is it?

Mark Franklin

No, not at all. No and. This. Is.

Speaker

To end up where? I am.

Mark Franklin

Now 20 plus years ago, it’s. Completely off my radar as to you know where I. Thought I would. Be so my background’s graphic design, visual communication design. That’s what I studied at UNI. It’s still a huge passion of mine. As a designer, I always felt that my role was to take a clients brief and turn it into something that would evoke and provoke and that kind of marketing 10. One of. Actually, imagination catch the attention capture the heart. Of the audience. So that they then, you know, take action. And I loved that. And as I mentioned at the start, you know, I’m a musician. I like to perform on stage. I love the whole art storytelling and kind of creating those emotions that connect to people. 2000 I think it was in the 2000. I started work at children’s book publisher in one of their sales divisions as the designer. My role was to kind of create all these marketing resources incentives. What I kind of call these hand grenades of excitement that would stir the sales team into action. I think it’s really important when you’re working in marketing, you get to know your audience, understand their kind of view, what excites them, what delights them again, what’s going to capture their attention, imagination and heart. And I learned quite quickly because they were a very excitable vocal bunch. They’re all those hand grenades that you threw in and all those kind of temporary sort of moments of destruction. Those things didn’t necessarily stir them into action. The thing that actually mattered most to them. Was their own story. What is it they really wanted? From their business, from their journey. And why is that so important to them that they were going to do something about it? And in those conversations, what kept coming back was from the outside looking in, and I could see how amazing they were, how successful. They were. But they weren’t seeing it, or at least they weren’t confident enough to sort of stand up and celebrate.

Speaker

Yeah.

Mark Franklin

And when you sort of ask them and it it’s kind of like, have those clickbait moments, it’s kind of you. What? What they told me, truly shocked. Me. What do you say to? Them you know what’s working well, what are you excited about? You. What are you doing next for? Your business and so on and so forth. Come back now. I’m not sure. Because yeah, I kind of feel like I’ve got hit by luck. I’m. I’m not actually that good at what I do. I don’t think other people say that. You know, I’m. I’m doing pretty well, but I. Don’t see it. Myself almost fulfils that we’ve just. Been through just. Kept coming up time and time again. And in my role as I kind of grew. From. Designer into marketing, marketing, director and ultimately the director of that sales division. One of the biggest. And I think most successful decisions I’ve ever. Made was to. Dial. Down, the folks on marketing and dial up, the folks on personal development, let’s dig in to what these people really need to find the confidence and bravery and clarity. In order to. Help them connect more to that. What’s the best that can happen rather than what’s the worst that can happen?

Speaker

It.

Mark Franklin

It did work, you know, in terms of all the number. And the you know the. Boring corporate stuff. The division group, we have phenomenal success. But for me personally, what I really, really enjoyed, and this is still the thing that drives me now, is seeing that kind of transformation from someone who. Clearly is very good, capable. Actually passionate about what they do. To the point where. They see that too. That’s the journey, essentially costly, if that. Makes sense?

Kirsty van den Bulk

No, it does and. And it’s really interesting because I I wonder how much and and you’ll have more of an insight on this than I do. But I’ve read a book the I think it was the I’ll probably get this wrong. Gay Hendricks book The Big Leap, I think it. Is. I always get it wrong. Anyway, I always call it. With the wrong title and and it’s it talks about.

Speaker

Yes.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Limitations and families and and over the last four years. And I was talking about this recently about the crab situation. We went crabbing you get 1 crab, the crab can go in the bucket but it can get out. You get 2 crabs and the crabs start pulling each other down, and I’m wondering how much of that limitation sometimes comes from an outside influence. Our childhood, for instance, or our friends and our family, and how, if there’s an, if you’ve seen any kind of that going on.

Mark Franklin

That that definitely, definitely plays a part absolutely. Again, you know, it’s. I mean, there’s an I I’m not, you know, neuroscientists and professional psychologists. So I’m I’m talking from experience rather than. Sort of fact that you know. I’ve studied over many, many years.

Speaker

But.

Mark Franklin

Definitely the the environment that you find yourself in, you know, has a huge impact on your self belief and confidence. And you know the directions that you. Choose to follow. And. Again, thinking about some of the more. Remarkable stories I’ve witnessed over the years. Digging into that bravery has allowed some some people whose stories I won’t share cause it’s quite personal, but to completely relocate to a different environment that serves them better. So it could be. You know a toxic relationship it. Could be surrounding cells with people who are more aligned with what. They want to achieve. You know it can go very deep very quickly, but equally it can just be. Because emotions are contagious, this is a fantastic setting, so it could just be that you yourself find yourself in a better place and the difference that.

Speaker

Yes.

Mark Franklin

On your environment, on. Your family on the people that you care about and interact with most, that in itself has that wonderful sort of effect too.

Kirsty van den Bulk

I love that and it’s really interesting. I’ve just been working with Phillip Smithurst, who’s a bringing out a new book called 20 Ways to Break Free from Trauma. And it’s a fabulous book. And she just said that in one of the chapters, trauma is contagious. And it’s really interesting what you just said there about everything is energy is contagious. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your own bravery because you don’t just suddenly and I I’ve done it myself, you don’t do something. I’ve had enough one day and you hand in your resignation. There is a reason and it takes a bit of time to pull on your bravery armour and take a decision. And and make that aha moment and that leap. So I wonder if you could talk about. Your own bravery for a minute.

Mark Franklin

Sure. Yeah, I mean well. The first things I. Always hold my hand up to in terms of the full fears is the one that hits me most. Is the OR not good enough so I know I have that kind of sort of impostor. Syndrome. Still kind of ticking away in the background. My I can see myself very privileged in terms of of my journey. You know this time. With the children’s book publisher. I was fortunate to sort of be promoted through the business because I was the sort of person who would put their hand up. Someone saying you? Know you fancy having a go at. This and like yeah, I’ll. Have a go be fine. I’ll work it out later. Even if I have the skills now. It’ll be good. I have that kind of confidence. I was really stirred. Why the successes that we were seeing in this kind of Salesforce that for me was my real driver I was. What I was thinking. About when I took over the division. I want to. Sort of think about what is our vision? What is? Our mission, what we. Stand for and I love this concept of providing it more with an opportunity to write a better story for their family. That was kind of our our hook. That’s what we did. You know, so whoever you were, wherever you. Were in the business out of all to. Help you write that better story. And that came about because. I myself felt. That the opportunities that were coming my way and the. Things that kind. Of you know, it meant for my family. As I was. Kind of working. We’re right about. Sorry for our family. It’s wonderful. It’s fantastic. You know, good for us. You know, I had the great job running the big money. We having holidays and blah blah blah. And then essentially I broke. If I’m honest. It got to the point the business was growing really nicely. We had everything kind of how it’s fantastic strategy in terms of how we’re gonna grow the team cope. With this kind of expansion etc etc panda. Hit Brexit hit. We were trading internationally. I suddenly found myself firefighting all the things that I really loved about those relationships and those stories. That wasn’t my day-to-day anymore. I was just putting out fires. And what I kind of? Realised. Through I mean, you know, therapy which, you know, I I’d step away for several months. I had to kind of really kind of look at myself. And I went to a very dark place, was really realising was. I was trying to write this well. To people write about story from their families. I was really unhappy. I mean like in a really, really bad place and and. Whilst I’m still passionate about that vision. The police I found myself in within that role. Yeah, I don’t want to over exaggerate, but.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Yeah, no, no. And and thank you.

Speaker

Kidding me?

Mark Franklin

I’m.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Not not interrupt you there because I’m I’m well aware that touching these places can can bring back those memories. And I’ve been there. So you’re you’re in a safe space because I have been in some dark, dark places in my time and you know, like you, I reached out and got got help and support that was required. So on that note, I just wanna go. Thank you. For sharing that and well done and look at where you are now. Look at how you’re inspiring people.

Mark Franklin

Thank you. Yeah, I I think. The thing that kind of. I’ve noticed now, I mean, we’re talking so this. It was only two years ago when this. All kind of.

Speaker

Really.

Mark Franklin

Got dark and through that kind of transition and realising that actually. I’d let go of. My own happiness. And the the reason that I sort of went out on my own. So I’ve only been doing this by myself for about 18 months. This was an opportunity to do all the things that I really loved on my terms. In a way that. Allowed me to write that better story for my family. Whilst putting myself in that family, you know this wasn’t just about the people around me, this was something that I could do in a. Way. I really enjoyed that was good at that. I’d make a. Bit of money from. That I would feel genuinely fulfilled from. I’d be happy and people keep saying to me now you know, what’s it going? How’s the new business? And so my immediate answer is I’m so bloody happy. I wasn’t expecting that to be like the, you know, the big takeaway in my first 18 months of training, but it is, it’s the kind of I still get to do wonderful things with wonderful people. But yeah, Friday afternoon when I shut down my laptop, I’m like, oh, yeah, so much more content.

Kirsty van den Bulk

I I love it. I do say to myself that my boss can be a bit of a ***** sometimes because she won’t let me have a day off. And you know, I’m standing here today going, I’m going to go watch my daughter play hockey this afternoon. I am so excited that I can close my laptop down and I can go. It means that your episode won’t be on Spotify until tomorrow. But you know that’s that’s the way things roll it. I’ve got that freedom. But that dark place changed my life. You know it. I had to really evaluate. I’m lucky a bit. It sounds like you are as well. I have an amazing husband. I have the most supportive man in the world. And here’s one thing for me is that he wants me to be happy. He knows my back story. He knows where I’ve come from. I’m like, God, did you take on some suitcases when you chose to? When you chose to fall in love with me? You need to get one suitcase. You got 25 of them and it sounds like your wife is really quite inspiration.

Speaker

So.

Mark Franklin

Yeah, yeah, I can get very emotional very quickly talking about how. But yeah, she’s we’re unpacking lots of suitcases together, I think. But yeah, she is absolutely remarkable. Yeah, by, you know, totally my best friend. And. Yeah, she’s been on this journey with me, but all she’s ever, all we. Ever wanted for each other? Really. Is is. That kind of happiness. And and I think I might think. That. Yeah, we’re. We’re in a much, much better place. 23 years of a very happy marriage that’s never been in doubt. But now we’re sort of getting to enjoy each other. Even more, and again those those those two crazy kids that we’ve got as well free if.

Kirsty van den Bulk

You include the dog. I stopped at one. That was enough for me. Yeah. So I’m gonna. Go over to there. Zoe. Zoe, where I was going to say goodness, sounds like you’re describing me and how fear has affected my business journey. Zoe, we were talking about this last night. So uh-huh. Energy is contagious. Mahaley. Joseph, I love that. It’s just as easy to spread the good stuff. Let’s live in in the happy lane of life. Yes, please. Great podcast, mark. Thanks for sharing your journey and the ebb and flow of life. And and that all that we never get. And that’s The thing is.

Mark Franklin

Nice.

Kirsty van den Bulk

People can, particularly with socials, particularly with the social channels, people really think everything is pretty and rosy, but actually what’s going on behind the scenes and I was having this conversation with a client about should you share the the, the down stuff, the rough stuff and then like, yeah, you should, you should philtre. You should put boundaries in place, and we talked about that before we came live, about my whole thing about boundaries because it’s very easy to over. There and I don’t know if you’ve seen the same thing where the fear has gripped you and it’s and it’s it happened to me. So This is why I’m talking about it. 20 years ago, I was running around Glasgow desperately trying to find somebody to help me because I wasn’t owning the situation I was in. I wondered if you’ve ever seen that in anyone else.

Mark Franklin

Yes, I have. And again, I I won’t share specific individual stories, but certainly you know from a sort of stepping back and watching again it you know there’s there’s examples where.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Please Sir.

Mark Franklin

You you can kind of this, this sounds quite harsh, but someone won’t necessarily take that ownership of the situation they’re in, because those fears are so intense and. With the best will in the world, whilst my role is. To kind of. Again, explore and embrace some of those fears. There are certain instances where this is. This is beyond conversation that I can get into. This is, you know, this is much more of a serious situation where people really need, you know, much more, you know, yeah, dedicated support.

Speaker

I think.

Mark Franklin

The fears themselves almost we’ve sort of touched on earlier based on the kind of the environment and circumstance and so on and so forth where where you find yourself.

Speaker

It is.

Mark Franklin

In Horsford and I think again, this comes back to one of the elements that I love about what I do. It’s important to kind of have that whole moment of, OK. I see these fears now. I see them, I recognise them. Then the magic really happens in terms. Of the what we’re going to do about them. And again. That requires a huge amount of clarity and bravery. One of the things that I. Hope I do very well. Is that very sort of gentle journey towards that? Clarity and bravery. Because, you know, we’re talking about very deep, personal, vulnerable conversations and. And helping somebody recognise the fears. And move them to a point where they start to feel that kind of confidence and sort of slight shoulders back a. Little bit taller. OK, this is something I can work. On and I want to work on. That that’s the magical moment. I hope that kind of. Makes sense, hope answers. The question anyway.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Really, you. But you did. It was perfect. Now we’ve got that, Hannah and your daughter inspiring you. But who else has been there holding you and supporting you on this amazing. Journey.

Speaker

Well, there’s there’s.

Mark Franklin

Quite a list. Again, going back to the the bookselling my my first boss in that particular role, who was an incredibly inspirational woman who basically gave me the space to fail. And she was like, sort of. Cheryl and Rauner, but don’t know. She’s on LinkedIn on her. Absolutely yeah. Fantastic. Sort of mentor. Because she would just not let me try things again. Coming back to that sort of designer marketer breathing it, what are we going to do to excite? People today, so let’s try this. Let’s see. If it works and she was very keen to let me. Fail like I say in a very safe way. So that was, you know, she was phenomenal. And again, like I said, I consider myself very lucky my parents. Essentially, you know. Not everyone has, you know, an amazing relationship with their mum and dad. I’m very lucky that both of them still here, they live. Very. Close and again, you know there’s lots of things I’ve done in my life which. I’m not particularly. Proud of, but they’ve always been there to say no mind. Come on. What’s next and interesting because I was thinking about this this morning because my dad’s story. He was an entrepreneur built up this. Incredibly successful business in his own way. On his own terms. And he did it. In a very kind of. Personable human way. He was very much like respected, highly regarded in his industry. He. Possibly was too emotional in his business and so much. As it ultimately. Failed because one of his biggest clients, who was also a friend. Essentially went down and took Dad with him and yeah, my mum was a bit more pragmatic. Like you should have. Drawn the line somewhere. And you know not got that close but. Another company swooped in and said we love what you do. We love you. We are going to pick this up. We’re going to pick you up because we believe in you and we’re going to keep. Moving forward.

Speaker

And the way.

Mark Franklin

That my dad handled that we’re. Talking sort of. 30 years ago, I think now just remains this incredible inspiration. And again thinking. About when I was like at my lowest and I was chatting to him and. He got. Yeah, I. Was there. I’ve done that and I’m like. I had no idea because he was just so solid, even though under the water it was kind of less solid. But yeah, they’ve, you know, both of them are remarkable, but. Yeah, it’s funny how much I have shared my. Journey in the same way that. Yeah. My dad went through so. Yeah, those two.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Definitely. Brilliant. Thank you. Let’s see the tables turn. I don’t know what’s coming. You get to ask the question of me. So I get to worry a little bit because I do. Every week I go. Ohh. I have to. I I do get a little scared. I do get a little fear coming and going. Ohh where we’re gonna go this week. So fire something at me and see if I can. Yeah, if I can. If I can be in the hot seat.

Mark Franklin

1. Well obviously I’ve listened to the show a few times and I know that one. Your big values is is helping. Love to kind of help and put others out there and promote them. Digging into again sort of the questions that I would normally ask someone I’m working with, there’s there’s kind of six. Well, there’s two, but I repeat the second one five times. What do you really? Want and? Why is that so important? To you, you’re. Prepared. To do the brave thing so. In terms of the wise white courtesy. Is. It about this show that’s so important to you.

Kirsty van den Bulk

So is.

Mark Franklin

Sorry, what is it about the show that you want? Yeah, and. And why is that important to you?

Kirsty van den Bulk

It’s really interesting because I set this up on a whim, so I’m very much like the back of a fab packet sometimes. Most of them are reorganised, but then I will pick up the fact that’s awful, doesn’t it? Back of a flag packet, piece of paper. Throw it together and I deliver within. You know, I like the pressure. I think that’s one of the things I I I’ve learned about. Stuff is I like to be able to turn something around in less than 48 hours if I can. I think that goes back to being an actor because to get a job and I think I missed that a little bit, so you’d get a job like I don’t I I prepare for the wise. White. Every week, but at the same time I do it as improvisation, deliberately so I think. Some of it feeds the artistic creative. Energy that I’ve heard because I went to drama school, you know, I was there from 11:00. I was a professional actress at 88 years old. So I think some of it is about feeding that need because if I don’t use that creative need, I I think I’m well. I know I’m a nightmare to live with. So I think partly there’s that. And of course, I’ve just launched a new podcast. So I must love going on camera, although I don’t even notice or watch them back. So I listened to them and the other thing is it’s a really good platform for new business.

Speaker

It’s.

Kirsty van den Bulk

It’s a really good platform for people to for personal branding. And when I launched it I thought we’d do 1012 episodes. We’ve done 89. I’ve changed the format recently because my life got busier and I realised the pressure of every week was actually becoming a bit of a limitation and that was causing some. Issues back into the family because I couldn’t do the school run every single Friday, so I’ve changed it to biweekly, which means that I can be actually a bit more selective in a way with the guests that I bring on because I’m now we’ve got 89 episodes and when I started I. Was like Oh yeah. Everyone. Ohh, let’s just go for it. But now I can really choose and it’s people that I will really feel that either they’ve been clients and they’re not confident on camera and I could build them up. They’ve got an important story to share and I think it’s really important that the story, because everyone thinks and it’s back to that social media thing. Everyone thinks life is perfect. But perfection is a moving target and perfection doesn’t exist. And it’s really key to me that this perfectionist gene that I had it, I had it. All the way through and I drove myself to the point of breaking, trying to be perfect, trying to fit in, trying to be socially acceptable, and now my 50s and I don’t give a flying something about being accepted or liked. I used to care a lot about it, and so I think that’s also part of it is. I really want people to know that what you see on socials is not real, and this reality is that every single business owner, every single human being I have ever met, has had their ups, their downs, and we all have this kind of up, down, up, down, up, down, life. It’s life is full of hair. And turn heaping bends, ups, downs, successes, failures. And if somebody doesn’t. Honestly, share it. Well, then we’re just still going to be living in this world of social bubble of perfection, and that’s just going to drive me insane. I think I answered your question.

Mark Franklin

Yeah. No, thank you. Yeah, you did. And I. I mean, I completely agree. What you’re saying again? This this whole fake gloss machine that you? Get over the conversation or.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Something again? Well, it’s it goes further, doesn’t it?

Mark Franklin

It’s drive, it’s driving this it’s it’s driving. The fears, yeah.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Yeah. And it’s not just there, is it? Let’s look at magazines. Let’s look at the marketing. I mean, I’m not gonna go on a rant here, but let’s look at men’s health magazines. Let’s look at women’s magazines. And let’s look at the stuff that they put out there. Look at the celebrities who are desperately trying to. Chase their youth and I’ll put him in Fellows and God knows what and ruining their faces. Let’s. Be really brutal. I’m 53. There’s. Nothing in this face and I like it cause it moves, but this is what I mean. So me coming on live every week. Yes, I put my makeup. On. This is why I’ve also brought in my new. My natural hair. Well, it’s. You got the colour, but the style. All of those things are me trying to just just bring a voice that says it’s OK to be just you. I guess that means right. It’s got a random life. Ohh.

Mark Franklin

It’s good. No, it’s good. Yeah, like. I said. We. Have 100%. On your side of that again because. Just being you, you know, no one will ever be as good at being you as you. So although there’s no such thing as perfect, you are the very best version or view that there will ever be, and that that’s what should be celebrated. You know that again, coming back to the fears, it’s kind of. It’s reminding you how how bloody good you are. And how you deserve to be celebrated. So again, that’s that’s why I’ve listened to the show. That’s what I love about it. I think that’s what you do really well. You you celebrate and allow people to celebrate themselves.

Kirsty van den Bulk

I really appreciate that because for 15 years of my life I lived in fear and well, it wasn’t 15. It was more like 13. But for 13 years of my life I lived in abject fear and for that reason, the wise why is is the platform? Because I don’t want anyone to be there and that’s why I said I’d love to have you on because facing your fears. In my my mind, it’s bravest thing you can ever do it. And I know you can help people.

Mark Franklin

Bless you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, again, thank you for. Inviting me on it’s. Been an absolute pleasure, really enjoying it.

Kirsty van den Bulk

Thank you so much for joining me.