The Wise Why

Kirsty van den Bulk
Hello and welcome toThe Wise Why, this morning I am joined by as is Mr. I hope I got that correct. Absolutely brilliant guy. And you know what? I’m not even gonna mention anything about me. So I’m going to go straight over to as is over to you because you and your love story and your journey and your pivots. I’ll treat you awesome.

Aziz Musa
Ohh, thank you Jeff. So a lot actually, but I guess I’m the guest so helpful this time. Thank you very much. Yeah, it’s great to be here. We’ve had quite a few conversations actually I’m I’ve always. I’ve been looking forward to this for a while. I think I was in Dubai when we first discussed doing this. So yeah, my well my life story. I hope isn’t at the end. Yeah, I’m hoping I’m only halfway through it, but so far it’s been quite quite interesting. So I was born. I was brought up in Blackpool in Lancashire. My my family, originally Sudanese and. My background is business. That’s what I studied and it just so happened that the businesses that were blooming when I graduated were all digital businesses. So I I joined very early in lastminute.com. I’m not sure it’s actually dot comes to the thing in the UK.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Well, that’s a really good question. It certainly was. I wouldn’t know without actually doing an Internet check right now, but yeah, it definitely was lastminute.com. I think I’ve even booked through.

Aziz Musa
Ohh yeah, most people out of it. It was it was such an icon by the British tech scene for so long and I really want it to be early on in lastminute.com. And then I worked in Dubai for a bit and then I worked for moonpig.com and and photo box and companies like this and.
Kirsty van den Bulk
Yeah.

Aziz Musa
Then I became the CEO of a of a public company in the UK and I was the youngest public company CEO. At the time I’m. Not sure if that’s still the case I have but anyway. And and you know after that I kind of felt like I wasn’t doing anything of value in the world. I think that was probably the biggest pick any moment for me. Was I really felt like I wasn’t doing anything about you. And so I decided. I mean, look this it was hybrid, but we did it anyway, and my wife decided but was just going to sit down and start a social enterprise so financially comfortable. Let’s just do that. OK, so we did that. Excuse me, but those of your audience who don’t know much about Sudan, it was under sanctions for 30 years, so digital just didn’t exist. There was no Facebook ads, no Google ads, nothing. So we arrived in 2017, built this social enterprise design purely to train and the next generation of digital skills. And just through handset, we ended up becoming the largest digital marketing agency in the region and and the fastest growing in the Middle East as well. And that really wasn’t my objective and I was just using to train people. And then you know, as many of you audience will know, the war in Sudan in in April of last year. So we we migrated the whole team to Egypt and that’s where we are now. We’re we’re based actually registered and operate out of the UAE. We have some of our team here in Egypt and it’s here in the. That’s the short version. It’s 43 years.

Kirsty van den Bulk
You’ve got a. Bit of. Yeah, you’ve got a bit of free. And and I’m just gonna mention you’ve got a bit of feedback now. We’re using stream yard, so if you look at the bottom, there is a settings button and if you click in there, if anyone doesn’t know how to streamline, you’re gonna learn if you click in there, you should have a noise reduction and just check it that you’re just to give you a heads up that you’ve got feedback coming on. So back to. That pivotal moment. Yeah. Moving out of where you were and launching a social enterprise, it doesn’t just happen, you know, suddenly wanting to give something back in the world. It’s truly inspiring. And. And your wife came with you. So I’m just wondering if you can just talk a little bit or expand a bit about that moment where you just went. I want to help people.

Aziz Musa
I think it is. Probably a little bit. More organic than the. I think that the initial thought was I don’t want to do this anymore. I’m not adding any value. I’m not doing anything. What what I was doing was I was, you know, just like I said, I was a CEO of a public company, which essentially means I spend most of my time with investors, institutions. And and chasing a number, a share price. And this number is. You know it’s managed by so many different variables. I felt entirely out of control. And I just felt like I was working relentlessly and and doing nothing of value. I think that’s where it came from. Like that dissatisfaction with where I was then sort of evolved into, well, what would be of value. And then it evolved into, well, you know, in Sudan they don’t have any sort of digital infrastructure. Why don’t we try and help build that and that’s kind of how it it kind of came from that this satisfaction.

Kirsty van den Bulk
It must have been incredible to find yourself in Sudan. Yeah. You’ve come from Blackpool. You’ve been in a really quite a a pressure job and now you’re in a place that’s completely different. That must have just blown your. Mind.

Aziz Musa
Yeah, I think everyone’s been to Blackpool. It’s probably not too different to a third world country, but sorry holidays, Lancashire people, it was. I’ll be honest, it was fantastic. It was an entirely different experience. I expected it to be really, really difficult for me in my life and and the kids. I think the good thing is that there were good schools that helps immediately when you’ve got good schools available, but also. You know, my mom moved to the UK in the early 70s and as I was growing up, she used to say to me the only difference between Sudan and UK live is that in Sudan, the women wear headscarves. And I never really ever said that. But what she meant is that. The the communities were so tight knit in Lancashire, everybody knew everybody, everyone was there for everyone. Everyone helped each other out and somehow over the years in the UK, well certainly where I was living in the UK, that kind of disappeared. You know, you people don’t really engage with each other and that isn’t the case. That’s it. And everyone. Everyone really engages with everyone.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Community is so important, especially if you’re a business owner. It’s something that I really care about. I’m really lucky I have an amazing community and people I can reach out to as I have this morning with the DMARC. I’ll see you then and and it’s it’s I. I don’t know if I could live in a place where you didn’t walk down the street. And say hello and I did for a while. I’m sorry. London. I’m gonna call you out, but yeah. London, you’re there. You’re storming. Ding, Ding, Ding. You’re in your own little world. And then you lock your door and you can shut it and you know, coming out to the the suburbs and the rural countryside. And I get that community. But was it a huge difference when you got to Sudan or or was it? I’m just intrigued.

Aziz Musa
Well, of course it is a huge. Difference because there you know the infrastructure isn’t there is you know, you know, electricity for like 6 or 7 hours a day. The Internet was flaky. Water would cut. The roads aren’t developed. There’s lots of really massive massive differences. So all of these things that we just take for granted. In the UK. In Dubai, when I go to Dubai, they they just don’t exist or they exist in a really weak level. So yeah, it’s a dramatic shift in terms of like lifestyle, but it was massively over compensated for by in terms of community and sort of feeling belonging. And part of part of it. Something greater and of course the work that I was doing there. It was. It wasn’t charity. I don’t believe. Like I never. I never think that what we were doing was charity was much more around sort of building capabilities with the commercial end for the individuals and then ultimately for us. So it wasn’t charity, but it it, you know, I think it had the the same psychological impact. Ohh, it felt great. It still does feel great, that’s why I don’t think I’d ever go back to to working, you know, a normal a normal job. I just feel like what we do is is is really good. It’s really good for me and it’s really good for the people that we that we work with. So why would we? Just keep doing it. So I want to talk.

Kirsty van den Bulk
About that because you. Just mentioned you you we kind of skipped over it, but you were in Sudan when a? War broke out. And you got your staff and you protected everybody. And I think this is incredible. You know, when we spoke a couple of months ago, I was just absolutely blown away by this. So I wondered if you because, you know, it was, what was it like?

Aziz Musa
It was awful. It was, however, back. Do you think war is? It’s 100 times worse because it wasn’t. It wasn’t in a distant place like it was right in front of our office and our house. It was like right there, you know, you can see and you can feel the vibrations of the anti aircraft fire and it was. Everything was cut, so we didn’t really know anything. So you have to make really tough really quick decisions. Literally life and death decisions. And look, thankfully, we had a plan in case something like this ever happened and we we sort of executed that plan really quickly. I mean it was, it was, it was harrowing, honestly, because there were, there were points, there were things that I had seen and smelled, Kirsty, that I don’t wish on anybody. I would never wish on. Anybody. And when I look at like Twitter and and ticked off at the moment and you see all these like the you know, Twitter warrior. Explaining so proudly. Ohh we should. We should just exterminate them and they should bomb here. And you think you have never seen war. If you have ever seen war for five seconds.

Aziz Musa
You would never ever wish that on anybody. And so I think that’s that’s probably the biggest thing that they took away from it. Yeah. Like I I was in through that with the responsibility and it would have been wrong for me to just leave that responsibility and. And go and I remember speaking to the British embassy at the time. And they said, look, we’ve got evacuation flights coming up. Just hang tight and we’re gonna evacuate you on those evacuation flights and sitting down with our wife and my kids and thinking, OK, well, we could get on one of these evacuation flights back to the UK, but then what about the 70 people that, you know, we’ve just spent the last six years. Everything. And so we made the decision and we had well, we had the plan, we knew what we were gonna do and we kind of, you know, and then everything went according to that.

Aziz Musa
It was really, really, really tough.

Kirsty van den Bulk
I’m just blown away because when you told me that story, I’ve got goosebumps. And I’m sitting here because, you know, human beings are innately selfish, but you’re not here. You were not just looking at your family, but looking at your your wide community, as you said, right back at the very beginning. That community is really important to you. And now you’ve taken the community with you, haven’t you?

Aziz Musa
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you’re right. I think humans are innately selfish until the point that they experience that in the extreme. Then they realise that that is a futile path. And I in my past have experienced that in the extreme. You know, side and lived with that, that sort of that lifestyle and thought. I enjoyed it for a period of. And then realised actually it’s just for me. Personally. I’m not saying it is to everyone. But for me personally. It was incredibly destructive, incredibly destructive, and so I I, you know, having been through that, I I felt like actually. There are just. More important things in life. And so I think. You kind of have. To go through that, it’s hard to say that being selfish is is bad, especially as. You know, because especially as a capitalist cause, I have a capitalist. Ultimately, I do believe in capitalism, so it’s difficult to say that itself is just pause. I don’t think it is, but that it has to be in the context of a wider community. I.

Kirsty van den Bulk
And I think that’s a great. One because as a. Mum, one of the things that Mum’s and I’m going to getting that selfish word. It’s an interesting one cause my my daughter again. She’s seven. She uses it all the time, but someone at school is really selfish. They won’t share their sweets on the really simple level they’re actually. Sometimes we get selfish mixed up, you know, as a mum buying a moisturiser. Or going and buying something for me feels incredibly selfish, which is ridiculous. I was talking to mom yesterday and I actually said to her what? What was the last thing you did for yourself? And she was like. What do you mean? It’s like, well, so sometimes I think selfishness is actually really important because you know, there’s that thing is you don’t put your child’s life if the the pain’s going down, you put your oxygen on 1st and then you go to the child because actually, you’ve gotta make sure that you’re able to cope. So there is an element of, I think, that selfishness that you need to keep isn’t.

Aziz Musa
Yeah, I think you’re right. But that’s story that you just said, you know about buying this present reminds me my wife goes on me about this all the time because whenever I’m in Dubai last a few months ago, I was in Dubai and I went to buy myself some new aftershave and I went and I I.

Aziz Musa
Tried a few like you do and I. Said. I like that one. But the shave and I was like, yeah, that’s nice. And the lady wants to ring me up. And I said no, now I want 7. Four of them. She goes what, 7? Why would you want seven more like. Oh, yeah, come by just myself. But I wanna give one to my father-in-law to my brother in laws to my name. You know what I mean? It’s it’s like I’m being brained in me a little bit. That you know, if you do something with yourself, you have to do it for other people and certainly see that with my wife. My wife would would you know, she’d go with her clothes on her back just to make sure that the kids were fully fed and clothed and had everything they needed. And I think that’s definitely a. Biological thing, right?

Kirsty van den Bulk
Yeah. And to be fair, my husband’s just bought me a standing desk. It’s currently in a box. And so as of next week, I will be standing. But that’s because he’s bought one for himself.
Aziz Musa
Is he sharing the love there or is he sharing the pain?
Kirsty van den Bulk
I. You. I love you, Dennis. I do. I I I am genuinely excited. I’m looking forward. I I don’t think the audience will be when I’m dancing around. So you’re now in Egypt, right?

Aziz Musa
Yeah, absolutely. We’re we’re in Aswan, in Egypt, which is like in the South part of Egypt. Most people we went through primary school will have learned about the Aswan Dam. I don’t know why they taught us like that in in primary school, but they did. They definitely thought it was part of the curriculum.

Kirsty van den Bulk
So what is it that you cause? We’ve talked about the social enterprise. We’ve talked about launching this digital marketing and and I’m just wondering if we can go and explain a little bit about how you empower others.

Aziz Musa
Today, sure. But essentially what we are, we’re a digital marketing agency. That’s what we do. So it’s called Coach Digital, coaxial digital and our model is unique in that. We deliberately hire people or bring people into the company, have no digital experience. And what we do is we put them through this six months of this. Intensive training and and through that six months they get to learn of writing skills and then the good ones who are like really excelling. We put them into the company and they start working with clients. So that’s kind of what we do as as an agency.

Kirsty van den Bulk
I think it’s brilliant. I really do. You know, it’s like it’s what a lot of people do. Oh, it’s what I dream of, you know, and I’ll get some people and I’ll train them up and then I’ll be able to put them in. That’s how I want. Scale. So I’m sitting here going. I’m. Very jealous right now. So you know, I’m I’m fans of, so he’s inspired you. You talked about your wife. You talked about your children. You talk about the community. That is there any point where someone has really made it? Just go. Ohh that’s interesting.

Aziz Musa
My dad, my dad likes well all of my life. You know, my dad was a doctor at the VA in the NHS for 35 years. He had me incredible work ethic and he he kind of taught us through lessons through, through, through life, you know, and I referenced like that in every training that I do. You know, whenever. Yeah. And whenever we’re talking about the important, firstly, the importance of not believing the environment that you’re in, right, especially in Sudan, we’ve got, you know, 40 million people who believe they’re in the worst possible environment. There’s no way out or OK, look, my dad, my dad was born in a tiny village in the north of Sudan. Without electricity or running water, you know? And he went to a prestigious university and became a doctor in the NHS. Having been a doctor in other places in the world too, he built a a lifestyle that people would be envious of. He had six children with my mum and he did that without any. And that without any rich parents to support him, he did it himself. My dad’s my hero. I mean, he taught me kind of everything that that I know.

Kirsty van den Bulk
That’s just incredible. And so you go up. Did you go up in? The 70s in Blackpool.

Aziz Musa
Yeah, in the 80s. So I’m an 80s child.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Alright. Yeah, I’m I’m that lot older. That must have been really strange as well. It kind of been particularly easy. So when did your parents move over from Sudan?

Aziz Musa
And back moved on from Sudan, the early 70s. And so I know my elder brothers, my older brothers, had to deal with a lot in Lancashire in terms of racism and all of that. But by the time I got to school, there were four. I have four older 123. Mixed up myself. Also I got 3 elder brothers. And and they had all been through school. And I went through the same schools and I didn’t really experience any of the issues that they had experienced. They told me about the things that. Happened. But that time I, because we were the first non white family in our village. But by the time I got to school, we were the. Mooses.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Right. Yeah, yeah. And and I see that. Funny enough, when I moved out to where I live now, I remember turning went to, you know, Dennis and I got went. Yeah, he’s European. So he’s from from Holland. And there was a bit of kickback around the Brexit towards him but not much. But one of the things I remember saying to him, I’d come from school in London was. It’s a little bit white out here. He was like, yeah, yeah. And the reason I chose my, the, the, the school my daughter goes to was I didn’t want her to. Grow up as white privileged not understanding what other people go through. You know, because as a white person, I think it’s my responsibility to educate my very white daughter that she has to be open to be aware of what, what our our our predisposed judgments, which we are all guilty of whether we. We, we I remember saying I don’t see colour. That’s the most. Probably the most ridiculous thing I could ever say, and so I’ve now made myself see it, if that makes sense. Probably doesn’t, but.

Aziz Musa
Yeah, it does. It makes total sense.
Kirsty van den Bulk
You know, I was looking at my website yesterday and I was putting some more information on it and I was making sure. That. I was proportionally represented representative. Anyway, it’s just something that I’m really aware of because I grew up and when I came out here it was so white, which was a bit of a shock.

Aziz Musa
Yeah, I can imagine. I think I I think that. We have a similar thing with our kids. I think that that. Race and colour is is kind of one element of it and sometimes maybe we get focus on you know how we feel or how we interact with people. But actually I think at a fundamental level it’s about learning, learning about other cultures and humanity learning. How other people are raised and what environments they’ve been in, and I think that there’s just a massive advantage to. You know, my dad was really fastidious about making sure that we travelled, so when we were young he would, he would travel with us. But then when, you know, we went to take our gap year, we had to travel. It wasn’t like, you know, there’s no option here. You gotta travel. So, you know, 18 years old, travelling around India by yourself, you learn a lot really quick. And. I think that that is something that that has really benefited me and and I try and I try to make sure that the environment that my kids are in, like the school that they go to is a multicultural school, even in Aswan, in Egypt, it’s not just Egyptians. There’s lots of Americans, British, Sudanese, lots of different nationalities. And just by being in that environment, I think they kind of learn a lot through osmosis, if that makes sense. And that, yeah, that kind of keeps their mind open to the fact that they’re just a small part of a much, much wider, a much, much. Wider world, right? So.

Kirsty van den Bulk
What’s the biggest learning or the biggest? I quite like this one. Actually the biggest learnings. I always think that I’ve made lots of mistakes and I’m really open about my mistakes and they call them magical mistakes because that comes from my daughter’s teacher, Mrs Harris, last year, who she was getting in a real Strop over some artwork and she made a mistake and missus Harris. And other said, no, it’s a magical mistake, and since then it’s stuck and and and. So thank you, Stephanie. But is there anything that has been the biggest learning or a mistake that you’ve turned into a real positive that has completely changed the way you think?

Aziz Musa
Yeah, absolutely. I you know, I. Think. Lots that I’ve made, lots and lots of mistakes because I’m a human being and and we all make lots of mistakes. I think I’ve made some absolute monsters though as well, which which has been impressive. I think one of the biggest mistakes that I learned that I that I that that I’ve learned from. Was again whilst I was the CEO of a public company. I had become so lost in myself and what work was or what I thought work was and success and what I thought success was. Then I just entirely neglected my. And I think for a period of like 18 months, I was just totally absent entirely absent, if not physically absent, emotionally and mentally absent. And that had a massive strain, obviously, on my on my, on my relationship with my wife and and with my kids as well. And even now just thinking about that. That you know that period of time was so awful, but it wasn’t awful because it felt awful. It was all because I didn’t recognise how awful I was at that time. Right. But it’s only in hindsight that I get to look back and go, Oh my God, I was just in a different universe and my entire life pivoted after that moment. Up until that time, I had been quite aggressive career person. And after that time. Career is 4 for 15 minutes to priorities.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Absolutely love that, because I think that’s why. That’s why I’m sitting here now, you know, I I could have gone into that, that road I was could have driven to the next level. I would have probably burnt out, but I could have driven driven, driven and and then it was like actually no. No, there is there is. There is even time not to work the weekend so I can spend time with my daughter and time with my husband because. When I launched this. You know, I had my head down and and I I can become hyper focused and then don’t talk to me because I’m in my zone and I don’t wanna talk to anyone until I finish my task. That’s not healthy. So I’m really pleased and I’m really grateful you shared that we’ve had a couple of comments. We’ve had Joanne join us and she said I went to a secondary school which was 50% white and 50%. Like Asian, et cetera, coming from a very white village where and schools, this was probably a great move from a young age. I also see the person first, yeah, colour, backgrounds, et cetera, is of no consequence. I do not understand any other concept. And I I think that’s a I think that’s what. Well, certainly what I tried to do, I don’t know if what. Thing on that, you’re just going to hit.

Aziz Musa
Yeah. Yeah. No, I I tend to, you know, so you don’t get my background, but yeah, I completely agree with them with, with, with that comment, I think that what’s interesting is that when I was growing up that option that she’s describing, there didn’t exist. Right. So white kids were growing up in Italian white communities and neighbourhoods. They didn’t. Have an option so a lot of what people perceived at the time as racism wasn’t racism. It was a lack of understanding of the thing that you don’t understand or a fear of that. Yeah, and. And as they grew up, you know, some of the kids who were really who were mean to me when I was young, became my best friends later on because they just, that wasn’t in their nature to be to be mean. They just didn’t know what they were dealing with. And so I think that there’s a, there’s a, there’s a great sort of opportunity that exists like that in the UK. I will say that that doesn’t exist everywhere where in Sudan, for example, most children go to entirely see them in schools, and it creates a. Racism that you you couldn’t necessarily comprehend if you, Kirsty, were to be walking down the streets in parts of Sudan you would experience racism purely because they’ve never seen a white person before, not necessarily in the capital. But in certain villages and and and in the north. So yeah, I think it’s that exposure that that’s really beneficial. You said it’s like you get, you get other people’s life experiences and cultures like osmosis. And so I think that that that’s really helpful.

Kirsty van den Bulk
That was really interesting. What you just said there because Dennis and I like to travel and before our doors came along, we definitely did travel and not naivety so much. But just because we wanted to see the world from our eyes without having to necessarily do it with a guide, we ended up in two countries where we kind of ended up. And we’re walking particularly one country. We’re walking around the major city and we were swooped on by one of the local officials who then said you cannot walk here. Yeah, you cannot do this. You are white. You cannot walk here without a guide. Where is your guide? And we’re like, well, we wanted to explore and just feel and they it it was. It was a real learning curve. I will be honest. It was a really we got to see an amazing culture cause it took some really cool places and we’ve got to see the heart of the the city. That we had no idea that what we were doing wasn’t wasn’t acceptable. And I think that was A and it was. The well acceptable is what he said, he said. What you’re doing is not acceptable. And it was a really interesting learning curve. We didn’t learn particularly from that one cause. We then did it again and then had to boot around to find a guide in another country. But we have now learned we we can’t be quite so gun, gun home. But yeah, being aware of culture is something and of. Course I don’t have. My daughter at this point, but. Being aware of culture is some. And and understanding is something that I learned on those two holidays and I carry them forward with me now and hold them dear because and I still get it wrong and I will continue to get it wrong. But I’m big enough and old enough to be able to apologise and say I’m sorry I got. It wrong. Sorry. Thank you.

Aziz Musa
Yeah, that’s awesome.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Thank you. So this is where the tables get to turn and I get to like put my head down and worry a little bit that you’re gonna ask me a question that I may not be able to answer so. The floor is.

Aziz Musa
Yours. So many questions. And you did tell me I was gonna get questions marinating on a few. Because I think there’s a lot of similarities. And the way that you approach life and the way I approach life, one of the small things that you mentioned to me, I don’t know if you make this public, but you don’t work. You only work during term time, which I think is fantastic. Like, that’s really, really valuable. But I did notice that you launched a bunch of forces I wanna know. Two things if it’s OK. So one question, two parts. Why do you love teaching? Because I gotta assume you love teaching, because as someone who’s who’s done caught in the past, that is not a that’s not an easy endeavour. And what do you think people get from from your courses versus other courses that they could take?

Kirsty van den Bulk
Oh, good questions. So why do I like teaching? I like helping one of the biggest things. When I launched, you know, KDB was, I knew an awful lot, but there was a lot of gaps in my information. And to get the information or to more of the case, to reaffirm that what I knew I knew it cost me a lot of. Money. And so I got quite frustrated and and as a small business owner, you don’t have a lot of money, you know, not when you first starting out and you’re trying to run your business as light as humanly possible. And I wanted to create something that would empower others to be able to do it for less than £100. So I created three courses which was one is camera confidence, one is the understanding the principles of social selling and the most important one is actually the one that people don’t realise is important and that’s called identifying your key messages, because if you don’t know what you do and you don’t know how you help, then you don’t know how you serve. And you don’t know how you serve, then you can’t bloody sell. Ohh, they just. So I created something cause one of the other things is people go on and on and on about SRS, CRS CRS, you need SEO. You need to get in, but nobody actually explains what search engine optimization is. And so you end up in this myriad of hell trying to hit the DML. Dmarc. And trying to link my outlook and all the other bits. Your inner world that you don’t understand and you get overwhelmed. So I realised about two years ago that there was a symbiosis between your key messages and your SEA. And it’s actually a lot. Simpler than people think. No, I used it by using some very lovely free software. I’m going to name them. Thank you, Google with your banking coach and thank you for ranking them. So thank you and I taught myself it. So now I created the courses to help other people be able to kick start their business for £100. That’s the difference. Is I’m going to give.

Aziz Musa
Next.

Kirsty van den Bulk
You 3/4. You can buy them separately because I know that not everyone can afford £97.00. I know I’m really charging a fortune here, so I started it with the social selling it 27 the identifying your key messages is 37 and of course my signature course camera competence is 47. So you can if you want to buy them separately. I did it. Deliberately to help others because I couldn’t find anything like it and that’s why I did it. So does that make sense?

Aziz Musa
It makes total sense and and you’re so right. The number of of people that over the years that have spoken to who. Want to start their own business or have even started, and then sort of going through loops, sometimes years, without really getting particularly, you know, understanding what your core message is and why that’s so important and not really understanding that. Look, I think that’s that’s a lot of great value that you deliver and having known you. Like I know that people will get a lot from that experience.

Kirsty van den Bulk
So Jones yourself, I’m. I’m going to love Joanne. She’s just said identifying key messages course with brilliant and a proper eye opener. Love you. Can I steal that from my course? You can get better. Better than that. I’d like to finish back to you because I think it’s important. So because of this show is not about me. And I thank thank you for letting me highlight what I do. But what’s next for you?

Aziz Musa
More of the same, I hope more of the same. I I’m really loving what I do, you know, like I said, we’ve got a digital marketing agency. We’ve got a new client. So if anyone wants to have a digital marketing agency, we don’t cost a fortune. We just do great work and I love doing what what we do. I’m really happy doing what we do. I think probably what’s the next big thing. On the horizon is that my eldest daughter is gonna be going to university in the next 18 months, so I’m kind of like that’s probably top of mind at the minute, but maybe a bit more of this. I’ve really enjoyed speaking to to you, Kirsty, and recently I’ve got quite a few podcasts and this is. One of the more enjoyable ones because. Firstly, your English. It shouldn’t make a difference, but it doesn’t make a difference and. And certainly it’s so conversational and just lovely to talk to you.

Kirsty van den Bulk
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having your time this morning. I really enjoyed it. Lots of thoughts in there.