The Wise Why

During this episode Susanna and Kirsty discuss how to embrace your energy, align yourself to who you are, and you can be anything you want to be.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Hello and welcome to The Wise Why this morning. Now, of course, as for us, what do I all forget to do? Check how to pronounce someone’s surname. So I’m going to make a stab at this, because I saw one question I forgot to ask. I’m, uh, joined with Susanna Ray.

Susanna Reay: Is that right?

Kirsty van den Bulk: Awesome. And, um, I met Susan Anna by accident. We had a five-minute conversation, and instantly, she recognized that I was an introvert. And it was interesting because not many people would see that. So, as usual, The Wise Why is not about me. It is about my guest. Susannah, the floor is yours.

Susanna Reay: Thank you. Thank you very much for coming along. Uh, like I said, coming along. For me to come along, uh, we need to relax, don’t we? Everyone needs to take a deep breath. And that’s actually about the core of my introvert way, Philosophies, is to honor the pause and to give ourselves a moment to think. So, a slightly unusual way, probably, to enter a podcast recording.

Kirsty van den Bulk: We literally just did that before. So, , one of the things that we do before we go live is we take that pause. So, , I think that’s a lovely way to come in, because nobody sees that, actually see it live on air and, go, we all get nervous, we all get flustered. We all suddenly feel out of, uh, our comfort zone. And taking that force is really important. So, thank you for sharing that.

Susanna Reay: There we go. It’s how we come to do what we do, I think, is best when we connect with who we are. And this is why, for me, ever since gosh, I was probably 14 when I first got interested in personalities and how that affects us. And the reason why I got interested is I’m naturally curious anyway. But at school, what I was finding, I’m someone who’s fully if I commit to something, I do it. My energy is full in there. I’m part of theater, society, drama. I was doing orchestra. I’d be playing tennis. I’d be doing all the things. I’d get home from school at 04:00. I was asleep. I wasn’t ill. But that was when I discovered I was introverted. Because it’s how I need to manage my energies. And I know many people I talk to now in the introvert space. They say it’s because I’ve read certain books. In the last ten years, there’s been a whole rise in the awareness, and I know I’m quite unusual, that from an early age, I looked at, well, what was happening inside of me, because I was like, I’m not shy. And, um, people were, in fact, even telling me, like, oh, Susanna, you need to be going on, um, anti-confidence courses. Because this was back in the 80s when it was like, you know, power shoulders, and let’s go and be confident and take us out there. And I was like, no, we need to be aligned to us. But it took a long time in terms of my business for this to become the forefront, because I think and in conversation with you, Kirsty, you’ve mentioned as well, that in the industry, you felt that you couldn’t necessarily be who you naturally were. And I got to a point, and it was about ten years ago now, where I was like, no, uh, I’ve just got to be me. It’s too exhausting trying to be anything else. And also working in the online space that I’ve been working online for 20 years, and very much the forefront of the digital nomad space. But I was hearing so many people propelling extrovert methods and methodologies that like, book yourself solid by having back-to-back phone calls. Uh, and I was like, yeah, I can see it in your face. We’re just like, uh, three phone calls maximum in one day. And actually, I prefer this, where we’ll face to face. Um, and I can see you. So, the advent of the technology to do video has been such a boon to me, because I’m very visual as well. I like to take the cues. I like to see faces. I still, to this day, ask me to pick up my phone. My mobile phone is more like this. I’m doing the old-fashioned phone symbol.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I like it. It’s cool.

Susanna Reay: And I’m like, no. Even if I got a ring like the garage to put my car in, I will put off that phone call for a long, long time. Booking the calls to do things like the dentist, I’m like, why can’t they have an online booking system? Everyone else does. I can do that at midnight. Then I don’t have to do it during working hours.

Kirsty van den Bulk: That’s interesting, because one of the things where we slightly differ, um, I get really frustrated, and I mean it by online booking systems, I want to speak to a human. Um, and to the point that the school run time for me is really important, because I phoned lots of people in the school run. Uh, I am hands free, but I am catching up with the people. I don’t get to sit down. And probably because I coach video coaching, and it’s probably why I’m slightly different. I quite like my time off camera, actually, because when I am on camera is really super intense, because I’m watching for every minuscule movement. I’m listening to every single thing that you say and how you say it. So, I guess it’s intense. I think that’s why.

Susanna Reay: You didn’t put any pressure on me.

Kirsty van den Bulk: But just think about this for a second. You’re not aware of this, because normally I tell my guests this. You’re not aware of this. I am only looking at you. And it’s really interesting. I’m only looking at you in my peripheral vision because I am looking directly at my camera here, and you’re on my screen here. And the reason I’m doing that is I’m using active listening.

Susanna Reay: So, um, active listening is something introverts, completely rocket, I would have to say. So, I love that you’re not looking directly, as you say, for this purpose. And, um, it is really important for that purpose. So that’s great.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah, it’s a skill that I got. Um, and I keep talking about this company, but, hey, here we go again. Um, I got it on an Oxley training course, and I was about to start the Wise Wire and it was suddenly like, that’s the way I want to do it. I want the guests to shine. But if the guests are going to shine and, uh, we will come back to you, but if the guests are going to shine, I need to listen. And I need to really, really listen. And that means I’ve got to turn off because I’m an on-camera coach, I’ve actually got to turn off my study head and listen. So that’s why I do it this way.

Susanna Reay: Yeah.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, as I was listening 20 years coaching online, that is huge. If you think back to, we are in, my brain is gone. What? You’re in 2022. The birth of the internet and the way we embrace the internet was around the year 2000. I was out working for intel in 2002 and I was launching Intel Centrino machines around 2003, 2004. You are coaching online 20 years ago. I want to explore that because that is huge.

Susanna Reay: When I say I’ve been working online, in terms of coaching, I’ve alwaysworked in the online space. Obviously, 20 years ago, we were dealing in Skype mainly, and there was still a lot of lagging in that space. I mean, now it’s amazing, the difference, but it was still possible. And it was back then as well. That is when I started my journey, of my adult journey, I would say, of moving around the world, because I’ve never been that sort of location dependent in my work. And therefore, tools like Skype and, um, being able to talk and with people across continents basically has been really good. And at that point in my business as well, it was a lot about helping people set up their websites for the first time. So, it was always around, what does your business do? What’s the strategy behind? Like, what do you want to start with? So, I’ve got a design background and I went to art school. I also went to business school. And these things were always coming together for me, and quite often the lead, particularly if you think back to 2002, most business owners did not actually have a website unless you were a big corporate. The small business owner was just beginning to think about, oh, I need this. And in, um, 2005, I moved to France, from the UK to France. And then it started even looking at, well, how can we be bilingual on websites? Like, we want the French and the English. And then a few years after that, I moved to Switzerland. And then suddenly there’s four languages that people are saying, how can we bring this in? And it was in that time when there was a huge expansion in what we now know today in terms of websites of, uh, what you see is what you get. The WYSIWYG, they were called handily at the time, the WYSIWYG editors. What you see is what you get. And there started to become these wonderful things like plugins, where they would automatically translate and make things easier. But all the time I was working with business startups who were understanding that they needed to show their services, they needed branding, they needed imagery, but it had to link in with their, uh, strategy. And what I was seeing quite early on is you’d have business owners, and they were sort of piecemealing out saying, hey, graphic designer, can you just make me a logo? And then that was like the extent of the brand. And your branding goes so much deeper than that. And I’m loving the nodding, big eyes.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I’m like, because I am going through that with a client right now. And it’s right down to your font. It’s right down to the font you choose, it’s right down to, oh, there’s so much in it. And then you shoot a video and it’s not even linked to the brand. It’s not even got your core misty yet. And let’s not go off on that target because that’s one of my pet subjects, is brand is not just about logo or colors.

Susanna Reay: No, it is so much more. And one of the things as well that we’ve seen an upsurge in the last, I’d say, ten years probably, is the rise of the personal brand, which is whether people are working for themselves, as I do, or if you’re in a company, you still have a personal brand. And what I mean by this is your personal brand is basically what people say about you when you’re not in the room and how you show up everywhere is very much it all pills into it. So, whether it’s on video, whether it’s on your social feeds, on your website, even in your coaching sessions, and when you’re serving clients. And this was one of the things that drew me to working with introverts more, because I was finding many people who are more introverted in nature. And as I mentioned, or I think I referred to at the start, that being introvert is how we harness our energies. It’s not about being shy, but what we also always want to do is we want to speak to what’s important to us. We’re not bothered about sharing the food we just had. We’re not bothered about talking about the weather. When we have a discussion, we want to dive in deep and prefer it to be meaningful. Now, unfortunately, on social media and showing up there’s a lot of very unmeaningful stuff going on. But it does entertain, I’ll give them that. Uh, and entertainment is one of those, and I’m sure you share those curses. There’re three key things you meant to do when you show up. One being entertained, and I’ll throw across the curse for the other two.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, I don’t know them because that’s not the way that I coach, not the way I was trained. So, um, we different ways of doing it. Um, so it’s interesting because I don’t look at because I only coach social media for business. And um, I’m only interested if you’re going to entertain, go find someone else. I am interested in you being informative, I am interested in you being educational. If you don’t add value behind every single thing, you post online, you’re not a client for me because I am only interested in you showing the value add and everything I do. So, you have to have that value add, you have to have that knowledge, you have to share it and you have to give something away. And I’ve probably just totally ignored it because of the word entertainment because I was an actor and an entertainer. Anything that has that word entertainment in it yet to me, that’s going to be kicking my legs. Not today, because I’m 51, but that’s me doing tap springs and doing jazz hands and actually doing a full show probably. Or all the times it’s being intimate and being Joanna Robertson or some other character on TV. So, entertainment to me absolutely means something completely different. So, I’ve probably ignored that when I’ve heard that going along the line.

Susanna Reay: Yeah, but it’s interesting because you are doing the other two, which is to educate and enlighten, because it’s about motivation. Inspiration is giving value as much as education in the HOWTOs. And the introverts of the world tend to be more interested in that value-add space. So, for me, that’s really interesting that, yes, you’re introverted saying, that’s where I want to focus on, because that’s the value-add piece. And it doesn’t mean as business owners, you can’t also be entertaining. And there’s some people who I see on Instagram, and they are superb business coaches, but their Instagram feed is also a tad of entertainment because they’ve got a natural humor about them. And that’s fine because they’re not putting it on. And I think this is the whole point about being aligned to yourself. I can get a bit goofy at times as well, but I’ll only do it when it feels like, oh, I just completely want to do this. And um, like, this is me. It might not show every day, but what it does show is when we start being a bit more relaxed, you’re being you, you’re no longer putting on this sort of mask basically for trying to be who you’re not. And this is where I was listening to all this sort of how you should be there was lots of you should be doing this.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I hate the word should, and I don’t like to use the word hate, but I hate the word should because it puts so much pressure. It’s a bit like the word what’s it that, um uh, it was difficult. That’s not the one I use. I changed something to challenge because challenge is nicer than hard. There you go. and as I spoke to you before we came on air, , it’s not mistakes, it’s an evolution. Yes, it should go into that bracket of owl. How much pressure are you putting on yourself?

Susanna Reay: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is why, when people say, you know, I’m so exhausted, like, do I have to be on, like, everywhere? And no, you don’t. One is enough. And I say to my clients, yes, you might find me everywhere, but remember what I shared? That was 20 years I’ve grown with these platforms. You know, Twitter will tell me, oh, it’s your I think in Twitter. I was a bit later to the party. I’ve only been there 15 years, but I’ve been on LinkedIn since those very early days as well. On Facebook, I remember when I got, like, a message, I was on a Skype with someone in the UK. This is when I was living in Switzerland and going, oh, there’s this new thing called Facebook. It’s when it’s sort of come across the ocean from the US to Europe. And I was like, oh, that looks interesting. But way before groups, way before business pages, way before advertising. And when you grow up with these things, it’s easier to be across multiple platforms. But if you’re starting out now, if you’re wanting to grow a following now, focus on one thing, because I find the reality of it is no one can. Absolutely, really? It’s a lie about multitasking. We’re better just focusing on one thing for, say, 90 days. Grow it, develop it. You can absolutely. Then start playing around, experimenting. And I’m a big fan of experimenting, um, with what you’re doing. Don’t think, I’ve, um, got to do it this way. If it’s not working for you, try something else.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I think that’s a really important point. So, a lot of people, they post they post a person. I want to move on to how you’ve evolved recently with your New Year’s shifted. But on that, the one thing people don’t do is they don’t check their data. And if you don’t check your data, you don’t know if anything’s working or not. And that’s why my brand changed. That’s why you now have person instead of Blue. It’s why my website and my company Aim because it goes back to that personal brand by accident, and I do call it an accident. By launching this a year ago, i, um, ended up building a personal brand. And I didn’t mean to, but I did. And then I had to embrace because this wise why drove so much. They drove my personal brand. Now, interesting enough, that introvert back to the actor. I was talking about this yesterday. The one thing I really struggled with was my own, um, name.

Susanna Reay: Now.

Kirsty van den Bulk: When I was an actor, I didn’t work as Kirsty Van den Bulk I worked as Kirsty Elkin. Not many people know that because I’m now remarried. But that using my name and moving from it being an acting name to, oh, that was really hard. That was my biggest moment of having to actually really overcome myself. So, it’s just interesting that data and I do think it’s really important check your data. Absolutely.

Susanna Reay: And one of the joys is it’s so readily available these days. There’s, like, no excuse not to on any of the social platforms. The data is built into those platforms. There’s no additional cost. You don’t have to do anything. Google analytics has been around for goodness knows how many years. That’s always been there as well. And, um, that is actually a great segue as to why, as you mentioned, I’ve had a slight transition this year because this started. And I’ve been saying I’ve been focusing coaching introvert entrepreneurs in terms of how to scale their business and really sort of grow group programs so they can start to really harness their energies in exactly the right space. And this is why I’m a fan of being able to move beyond the one to one. And what happened, and it was actually on a gray February morning, and I had my Mastermind clients coming together. And I had yet another email that sort of popped in from one of the clients going, I haven’t really had a chance to do anything, but I’m going to come along and listen in because I know you always motivate me, inspire me. I feel better. And then something just clicks inside me. At this point, I thought, right, I need to mix up this session. So, I had been running them in the very traditional sort of coaching mastermind sense, where we’re talking through the issues. People are making notes, and then they’ll go away. And I was like, right, this is going to be an action session. And I didn’t warn them, but all I said is, basically, I, uh, got them on the call. And I was like, right, this is going to change. Have you got a plain piece of paper in front of you and a pen? And they’re all, like, nervously, like, nodding because, yes, my introvert peeps. They always have a pen and paper in front of them. They love making those. Hey. It’s like, I know I’m one. I’ve always got that in front of me. And they’re like, oh my God, what is Susannah going to make us do? And here’s the thing. I’ve been working with frameworks, visual frameworks again in my business, right, since the early doors. And even back, if I take my brain back to those school days. I was drawing frameworks in the margins of my notebooks. I was drawing a diagram to help me memorize what I had to come up with exams. And now, 40 years on, I’m 50 now. I still know some of those frameworks because I drew them out, and I understood where I was going because I got clarity, I got connection. And it really helped with recall and so on, um, that February morning, I was like, okay, I need to bring the frameworks back into the front. Rather than being one of ten prerecorded lessons, that’s part of the bigger picture. I was like, come on, guys, you need to do this. And so, I took them through one of them. I have over 20 now. And I took them through one of them on that session. And none of them had they sort of, like, attempted it on their own, but they hadn’t really dumped into it by the end of that session. I actually then put on the recording to share with those who hadn’t turned up at, uh, that session. Again, I was like, come on, guys. You’re paying for this. You should be here. And I said, I just want to share with the others. How are you feeling now? And they were like, oh, my God. I’ve got so much clarity. I’m motivated. I know exactly what I’m going to sell. I know who I’m going to talk to in my marketing. And, um, that gray day had turned colorful within an hour for those people. And that was the sort of flashpoint that it said to me, in your businesses, Anna, you need to bring the frameworks to the fore. And since then, I’ve trademarked the name Sparkle Frameworks, because I also differentiate between a static framework, which is just more akin to an infographic where something is flat on the page. And you’ll love this bit. Kirsty, is they start getting interactive. You can share them in videos, in presentations, and you build the tension so people can also understand and relate to where they are within that, uh, framework, which then helps the sales for the business. It was all from that gray morning. I was like, this is what I need to do. And it naturally drew together my creative and the artist and me, the art school student, the business school student. And I was like, boom.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Love it. I love it for a lot of reasons because that’s why. So, I’m visual objective as a Dyslexic, I’m going to be visual. So, I’m about to hit my first visual. Uh, if everything goes well next week, I’m, um, not just going to hit it, I’m going to surpass it, which is amazing. But, um, I love the visual whole way that we can explore. And it’s that knowing that if you see things in pictures and you have that shape, you know what you’re working to. And for me, that really works. So, I’m really pleased that you shared that. Uh, thank you. Thank you very much. So, as we’ve got, it’s been brilliant. Um, I want to know who’s inspired you. I want to know and also, I want to know about AHA moments, because AHA moments resonate with every successful, we just talked about one in February, but there must have been some other moments along the way, and there must be people who have inspired you.

Susanna Reay: So, on the topic of inspiration, that’s a really interesting one for me, because I’ve never been someone who celebrity watches or follows or takes people in terms of the famous side. And if you ask me if I watch a film, who was the actor? Sorry, I don’t remember their names unless they’re like, uber famous. But there have undoubtedly been so for me, it’s more rather than specific people there’s moments. And, um, I think that’s, as you say, talking about the AHA moments. And along the way, part of my deeper way as to why I was always working online as well is because I do have two children. I wanted to be around for them. I also wanted to show them what the new world was looking like. That the traditional world of going to work with a company, being that nine to five slave and not being yourself wasn’t needed, that you can and particularly as a woman, you can have a business and a life. And I do work with both men and women, and even the men now, I love it, love it, love it. They’re saying, hey, I want some lifestyle, too. I don’t want to be working till midnight every night and not seeing my family. And so that was one of my early, AHA, moments of how I could use the technology to not only transition in with my lifestyle, and at the time with young children, but also because I was moving, and I’ve always been globally transient. I’m working with people around the world. And so, it was this AHA moment of the technology is there, why not use it? And, um, the ability to be on video as well, you get deeper, faster connections. And, um, it could take me quite a long time to get on video in terms of outwardly, in marketing, yes, I was on Skype, right. Early days, you know, with my clients, who I was talking to. But it did take a piece, and I went, no, the way I’m going to do this, I’m just going to and again, this is why I mentioned when I do something, I commit to it. So how did I get comfortable on camera? I said, every Wednesday at, uh, 930, I’m going to go live for ten minutes for a year. And that’s what I did about I think it was about three years ago now, three, four years ago. So that was a real, AHA, uh, moment of how you can really connect faster by using video and it’s a bit about just getting over yourself. And one of the analogies I always use with clients, and they go, oh, Susanna, I can’t. And, um, so even though I don’t teach video, I can now send them towards you. Kirsty I’m always going, hey, you need to do this. Because I’m saying, well, if you owned a shop, you wouldn’t have a paper bag on your head as you were behind the counter. You would still be you. You’d be welcoming. You’d be talking about your products, your goods in the store. And it’s no different with services. And this is where the frameworks come in, because many people, not just introverts, struggle with the, again, old fashioned pushy icky sales of going, hey, I’m amazing. Come with me. I’m the best person since sliced bread. And we’re, like, don’t want to do huh. That. But if we say, hey, I’ve got this framework, it’s just to the side of me, and I take you through these processes. You’re showing your credibility, you’re showing your authority, and it’s easy to talk about because that becomes your product. And it’s so much easier talking about products than it is about the value that you’ve got within. Whereas if we bring it into a framework that comes together, so there are elements of all these things, and I would be listening to people like Simon Sinek and his the bigger why, and going, why am I doing this? And connecting and delving down. And at the end of the day, my biggest mission is I want to close that gender pay gap. I don’t want there to be such a thing as gender. I mean, for me, everyone I meet is equal. I don’t see man, woman. I see person. I’m interested in you and you as a person. And what can we come out of that?

Kirsty van den Bulk: You touch on a lot of really interesting things there. Uh, it’s interesting about the salespeople and the shouting, because one of the things I firmly believe is should never, ever ask somebody why. And yet I’m sitting here asking you, m why? Although I don’t think I’ve actually used the word because necessarily. I’ve asked you who inspired you. Um, I haven’t asked you why you set up your business. And the reason this is actually called the why’s why, and I said this before, is because I got sick and tires of all the people on, um, social media shouting down the camera, and, oh, my goodness, going, do you know your why? And it was like, whoa, we need to know our why. Absolutely. But we don’t need to shout it, and we do not need to pitch on social media. As I said earlier, we must show our value. And it’s social selling. And going on camera is, as you said, um, very much like how you would be in a shop. So, I talk about going on camera, being like you would talk to somebody. In a coffee shop. It’s intimate. It is not about shouting down the lens. And, if you remember right back before you went live, I asked you to sit back from the camera because it was too much on the camera lens, because the camera likes space. So, it’s interesting because I really firmly believe everyone should embrace video. I use the word should. I should say that everybody must actually embrace video, whether you’re feeling confident or not confident, because most video is actually viewed on your mobile phone and social media. And your video is now your oh, I’m going to say it out loud, your shop front window. It’s the way everyone should do it. So those are my opinions. I love that you’ve gotten visual, that we have been talking for nearly 33 minutes. And this is where and I’ve loved this conversation, this is where I get to go into the hot seat now. I always dread this moment, especially when I’ve got someone like you on, because I just go, oh no, you’re going to expose me. And that’s the introvert coming in. So, feel free. Ask me a question. I will do my best to answer it directly and not reflect it.

Susanna Reay: It’s like, ha, I’m throwing back the evil.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Before we go there, we’ve had some comments. I don’t say I don’t know who has joined us, because unfortunately, I can’t see their name, but a lovely person on LinkedIn has said morning to us. And they’ve also said this m, um, resonates so much with them. So, thank you for sharing. And that must be around us talking about just being human. And it was around nine, seven. So, we’ve had a couple of people watching and commenting. I don’t get the comments from YouTube, unfortunately, which is a real shame. But it’s really cool. So anyway, I always like to bring in the people because, uh, they’ve given us their time this morning, and I really appreciate that. So back to you during your question at me.

Susanna Reay: So, I would say, what’s your biggest challenge in your business at the moment? What’s that hurdle that’s ahead of you that you go, I don’t want to do? Because we all have them.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I think I’m about to escalate, and it really is that simple. Um, I’m one or two contracts away from having to escalate. That means I’m going to have to either take on an apprentice, take on a VA, uh, find somebody in the month network that wants some admin. Um, and it’s exciting at the same time. It is petrifying because it’s losing control, right? Uh, well, it’s funny enough, it’s not about losing control. It’s about letting someone down. So, I bring somebody in and then I don’t have work and, the work dries up, then I have to let them go. And I will be personally invested in that person, and I will care for that person because that’s the person I am. I don’t see a person as a commodity. I see that as a person. And so, it’s that it’s the letting someone down. I’m really excited about passing some of the business over because, again, back to Oxlep. One of the things they teach you is how to escalate, or they teach, they explore, and they empower you to understand it. But, um, it’s that it really is the fact that I am not far from escalating the business. Now, I’ve only been in running my own business for two years, so that’s quite quick. And if I look at my balance book right now, it doesn’t show you the numbers to escalate, but I’m looking at my forecast and I can see what’s coming in and I can see I might have to escalate and I might have to bring someone in. And that might mean that I then have to let them go. Because I don’t just look here, I’m looking long term and the idea of disappointing somebody worries me. So there you go.

Susanna Reay: And it’s really interesting that it’s that piece, because, as I’ve mentioned, the piece where I love working with businesses is when you’re moving from this one to one and wanting to move one too many and scale, which, yes, sometimes that means bringing in people. And I love the fact that you’ve got that awareness that it might not be forever for that person, but nothing is certain. And, um, probably the person who you bring on board will know that as well, because there’s always trial times as well. And I know I’ve brought people on in my business, and for whatever reason, we then had to step apart because it’s not always down to the fact of the work in the business, but it’s also about the personalities and the alignment. And then they might be going, well, my business is now escalating. And therefore, they’re like, I need to spend more time over there. So, thank you for sharing that. That is a challenge, because I think the more, we share about our challenges, the more it becomes normal. And I think that is one of my biggest wishes, is the more we can share, generally, the better we’ll all be. And I’m very much about collaboration over competition. And if we understand that other people are struggling, it will help that big sort of great elephant in the room, which is mental health in and across the world at the moment, and how we can then bring that forward. Because if we share that, yeah, I’m struggling and I have similar challenges, and some days I’ll wake up and go, why am I doing this? It just feels like the weight of the world is on you. And um so I just wanted to bring in that piece of reality as well, because, yes, it’s been a journey to hear, but the journey keeps continuing.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Exactly. We’ve had one more comment from the lovely Lindsay. Lindsay I can’t speak to me, Lindsay Gartner, who has just said thank you. Two inspirational ladies in one place loves Susanna’s wisdom and knowledge. Great conversation. On that lovely note, we shall finish. Um, if you want to watch it again, you can catch up on YouTube.

Susanna Reay: Hey, I’m doing that.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I’m doing that call to action just because I never do this. But, yes, you can catch it on YouTube or watch it on Spotify. And, of course, it’s always on LinkedIn. Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, too.

Susanna Reay: Thank you.