The Wise Why

During this episode David talks about losing everything and rebuilding his life with the steady support and love of his family. Unfortunately, during the live stream the sound feeds back occasionally during the episode.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Hello and welcome to the wise Y. This morning I am joined by David Greenaway. David and I met earlier on this year in March where he was presenting a whole topic about service and uh, not selling. Now this resonated with me hugely because I used to work for intel and when I worked for intel, we were always about solution selling and never about selling. So, we were always about finding the solution and serving and helping the customer. But as usual the word wire is not about me; it is about my guest. So, David, please introduce yourself.

David Greenaway: Well, I wanted to see on the screen um, David Greenway. Um, I’ve got quite a bit mixed bag of history and story and I won’t want to bore anyone with it immediately but um, being in business, in and out of business for basically my whole life-built companies, won some, lost some, had some real big successes, lost load of money once too. So, it kind of had a very typical entrepreneurial journey several ways and currently working on um, the stuff that I love to do which is coaching and helping others through their journey. And frankly Kirsten, you can invite me to bed.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Cool, no problem. One of the things I really shone out about you to me was your energy. You enter a room, and you are vibrant, you are full of life and positivity. It shines in every single uh, element of you and it’s really intriguing to watch. And very quickly you said that you’d worked on the car show selling cars and um, I’m the one person you can’t sell a car to because I get really annoyed with car salesman. But I know that selling in that way would have taught you so much. Can you explore or explain a little bit about how or if there’s anything that you’ve learned from being face to face hard, cold selling which is incredibly difficult to what you do now?

David Greenaway: Yeah, absolutely. I was back in the 90s so car sales was very much at the stereotypical level that we all think of car salespeople. Uh, um, pinstripe suits, fagging mouth, hot cup of coffee and sort of beating people up to buy a car and that was kind of what we were taught. I won’t name the group that I work with who taught us to do some of this stuff but uh, what we had to learn then was a very strict process that we weren’t allowed to waiver from. We were taught basically to fully persuade, manipulate, and pursue sales as if our lives depended upon it and which in some regard they did because that’s how we earn money. We had a low salary and if we didn’t sell cars then we didn’t get any money. So uh, we were very highly motivated to sell. But the truth behind it all, everything I learned, everything I went through out on the forecourts, it was everything that subconsciously I hated. I just didn’t know it then, but now I do. And I hated it and it hurt myself. So, what I really learned was how not to do it. I learned the tough, horrid end of it and how not to do it. And I think it’s got to be careful here because it’s not how car sales is now. My experience of it now is so different and I think there’s a lot of tremendous people out there doing really good work in the car industry that aren’t um, 1995, beating people up, locking them in a cabin until they give you deposits. It’s um, different landscape now. So that’s good. So that’s a massive movement. But when I was in it, it was hardcore.

Kirsty van den Bulk: That’s important though because that’s the whole point, isn’t it? We’ve had this conversation and I still use one of your phrases, or rather I knew the phrase, which I get quite in that training, um, session. But 80% of a sale is made before anyone interacts with you. So that has changed the way we sell, the way we must build the know, like and trust or at least I feel that we’ve all had to embrace social selling and I was wondering about how you’ve done that. Change yourself.

David Greenaway: Yeah. So, I mean, talking about that, yes, 80% of a sale is made long before anyone interacts with us, the person they want to buy anything from. So, if we stayed in cars absolutely. If you’re cursed looking for a new car, first thing you’re going to do is go straight on Google, isn’t it? To the manufacturer. Look at reviews, you’re going to look at pictures, look at model specification. You have them all the information in the world that you need. So, you are going to do that, and you’ll probably do that for some time. A lot of people tend to do this for quite a while. So, by the time they come into a dealership in this scenario, they know they’ve got a clear idea of what they want. The color, the style, the fabrics, what the accessories are and so on. And it becomes in a sense more taking an order. Now I don’t want to diminish the skills that people have to have when they’re taking 2000- and 3100-thousand-pound orders. Then they still have to have some skills. But the information has already been provided. The sales almost there. Um, so you get to serve rather than sell. So, people in dealerships in all sorts of different industries get to serve. They don’t have to manipulate, suede or try and talk someone in or out of something. They just get to serve them. They get to take them out for a ride. They get to show them the lovely wheels that these people have seen online already. They get to put what we would call in the car trade bums. On seats. Um, and that was always the nice bit of it, was taking people out and letting them see and feel like what a car was like. We always knew once you did, that really close to the deal. So that’s how it’s changed, is that this information is readily available. And I think for companies, any business, anywhere, it’s important you put your information out there. If your customers have questions and they’re asking them, you should tell them before they even come and see you. So, articles, posts, blogs, website, anything, get it all out there. And it makes a big difference, really does.

Kirsty van den Bulk: One of the things I know that you’re very keen on, and, um, I am as well, which, again, that training session was great, because I was sitting there going, yes, agree with that. And one of the things I know you’re keen on, and yes, I did do it badly, but I did have it. And that was getting your pricing where it’s transparent, so that the customer knows, and I know you’re keen on that could you expand a bit more about why you feel transparency is key in business?

David Greenaway: Yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting because it’s quite a spiky point of view, isn’t it? I know there’s a camp that are dead against it. Build value, then give them the price, and then there’s a camp that are absolutely, uh, for it. And I’m in that camp. So, what I think is, if you take the premise that everyone’s researching everything and that we can say that’s facts, I’m not making that up. We all google everything. So, if we take that fact, and if you’re searching for a car, a laptop, or anything, you want to know the price. The price is in there. So, whether we like it or not, people are shopping on price. They want to know where they are with that price point, and then they go looking for the value. So, if a business in my mind, this is how I see it. If the business isn’t putting its prices out there, people are rolling themselves out faster, because, uh, they want to know. It’s part of their decision making. It’s a fundamental question. What does it do? Will it work? How, uh, much is it going to cost? And what do other people think? There are four or five key questions. If you don’t answer them, then you just Google the next firm, and the next firm answers it. They will carry on. Now, when I work with anyone on this client creation piece, I’ve always explained it for me, as a colander, you’ve got to give people the holes to leave. They must find a way out as much as you want to find them a way in. People must rule themselves out or rule themselves into you. And a part of that is having accessibility to price. Um, one of the biggest arguments I get, Kirsty is that my competitors will find out. Well, yeah. So, what do you not think they couldn’t find out if they were really determined to. And honestly, who cares? Stop looking at them so much. Worry about you. You let them crack on. You just do you? So that was often I get hit with that one. And I just think I don’t care. There’s always going to be someone else doing something else. So that’s my view, I think. Get your prices out.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Thank you. And it’s interesting because I got my pricing wrong, like any new business owner, and we, uh, had that meeting, and you really helped me. But like any new business owner, you go out there and you’ve got your pricing out there, and you’re trying to work out your value. But if you’re not actually putting your pricing out there, there’s a couple of things I want to touch on in this. So, if, um, you’re not putting your pricing out there, then you don’t know if I got told off by other coaches and consultants for charging too little. Why am I charging too little? And they were right. They were like that you’re undervaluing the market and you’re driving down the price rather than putting the price up. So, you’re not maintaining the price. And the other thing is, if you are transparent with your pricing and it’s on your website when you get money miner uh, and I am going to put it out there, because that’s what it’s called, or a lot of people called it to that imposter syndrome of I’m putting together that proposal and I’m going to put my pricing out there. And we don’t know necessarily the budget of the customer, or we might know the budget. We don’t know what their expectations are on everything. So, you sit there as a small business owner or doing a quote for a big solution. And in your own head and I’ve done this when I was in big sales, in your own head, you’re going, oh, that’s too expensive. I better put a discount on it. So, you start discounting before you’ve even got to put the price out there. So, having the pricing on my website means I have to go out at around my day to March.

David Greenaway: A great thing with it is in service driven businesses, you can do a starting from price, can’t you? You know your base service, whatever that package is, you know how much you want to make on it. And you can do starting from. So, anyone who’s there knows there’s an expectation of £2000 a month. I don’t know wherever. And, uh, they, um, know that’s their expectation. And if their budget is only 500 a month, therefore you’re not for them and they’re not for you. And that’s good. It’s good to know who your customers are as much as it is good to know who they are. I, uh, think that interesting to that point. You make about the proposals we’re all guilty of that, of self-discounting. Because currently we all know what everyone’s got in their bank account. We’re all mind readers. I know what all my customers have got in their bank. I don’t know how arrogant you must be to think you know what someone else has got or willing to spend. Right? So, to me, it’s like your price is your price is your price. Some will, some won’t, whatever. Say what?

Kirsty van den Bulk: Thank you for that. There was something that I thought was really important, what you just said there, you know what you want to make now, many small business owners. But also, again, I’m going to go back to that large sale because that large corporate organization where the salesperson has gone, because I’ve been there and there’s a thing in business called margin. Nobody talks about this. Nobody talks about profitability or margin or gross profit margin. Is that the right one? It’s a long time, for a long time because now I look at things differently. But one of the things I dealt with in manufacturing sales, it’s same in the car industry is your product cost of X. But it’s going to cost X to get it to X. And then there’s going to be all these different things that are factored into that price. It’s not just about the cost of something. There’s the cost of manufacturing. There’s a cost of air freight or shipping. There is a lot more shipping. Even within the UK. There is a lot more that goes into a price structure. I can’t believe we’re having a pricing conversation, but there’s a lot more that goes into it than M people think. And we are going to get off the pricing structure in a minute. But I just thought it was really interesting to COVID that. Because people forget that you’re not being paid just for your time when you’re a coach or a consultant, you’re also being paid for the time behind the scenes where you’re answering the calls or you’re sending the emails. Because when you’re a small business and you know this, who pays for that when you’re in corporate? That’s covered and factored into your absolutely.

David Greenaway: I think as well. And that’s a good point. And one of the things that I’m often very aware of and talk to people about is people aren’t paying for your time. Certainly, in coaching or uh, I don’t think in any service industry should always try to get away from time. I know most people know that, but it’s hard. I understand how hard it is, but they’re not paying for my time when I’m working with people. They’re paying for the last 30, uh, years of, uh, stress, tears, joy, happiness, success, failure. Uh, they’re paying for the 30 years of every single book I’ve read over and over, uh, and then tried it all the conferences, connections, everything I’ve done. As with many people that’s what people are buying. And getting away from time is difficult because a seller wants to sell their value. A seller wants to demonstrate their experience and knowledge in whatever industry they’re in. And a buyer wants to buy something predictable. They want to buy something tangible. They want to buy it on time. So, what I find, a lot of businesses, you’ve got one person selling something based on value, and they’re going, it’s not about my hourly rate, it’s about the outcomes. And then they turn around and literally, on the other hand, they’re trying to buy a web developer, uh, to do their website on an hourly rate. And we all do it. And we all flip around, depending on what we’re trying to do. Get the most amount of money, spend the least amount of money. Right. So, we are in this continual loop. Many people are. And it’s hard. It’s really difficult, especially for people in subjective industries, like graphic designers, web development, where it’s an opinion based, um, sort of result. It’s quite hard because my opinion on a graphic design might be completely different to another person and probably would be, and what I feel is valuable or good or bad or whatever. So, it is difficult. It’s hard. The only thing I can say to anyone, as I say, try just do your level best with it, um, and go and talk to some people about it. Because unless you talk to anybody, you’re not going to do anything, are you? So that’s always my yes.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, I know I know that you, um, have been down in the depths of hell, and you have rebuilt your life, and you have succeeded. And you’re now on that pedestrian, I know that somebody really important supported you on that. And I wondered if you wanted you don’t have to, but I wonder if you wanted to share a bit about how amazing your wife is, but also about the person behind you.

David Greenaway: Yeah, absolutely. So, for context, in 2018, um, a reasonably large business that I built up over a decade, um, went and I’m not going to go into details because I have varying NDAs, and I thought embarrassed a franchise, franchise also. But this big business ended, um, and it wasn’t through my choice. And, um, it kind of came crashing down from having lots of opportunities, lots of people I was working with, enjoying my life, some money. I wasn’t a millionaire, anything like that. We were okay. We enjoyed our lives. But I felt more than anything, I would build something. And, um, it was leading in my marketplace, in my sector. So, um I lost it. Yeah. And I hit rock bottom. So, I absolutely. Houses, um, had to be sold and savings, um, spent. You, um, know, the truth is, I don’t mind telling you, Kirsty, I’m still paying off some of it, right today, five or six years later, I’m still paying some of this debt off because I never wanted to be the guy who didn’t pay his dues, you know, um, although it’s really hurt. It’s really hurt. However, uh, I moped about for a long time, and I said a long time, three months, four months. And it was hard. I mean, it was like, it’s a weird. So, I want to be careful how I frame this because I know it’s not as bad as actually losing some loved one in life. But I felt a loss. There was a bit of a grieving process going on. Um, and again, I’m not trying to match that up to anyone who’s really lost anyone, but it just felt like a grieving process, and it took a while. And then, um, literally one morning, I got up and was getting prepared to mope for the day. And literally we sat down at breakfast and my wife, Joe, was kind of like, well, I think we’re done with this now. Can you please go out and make some money and, um, support your wife and your children again, please? And I’d really appreciate it if you could get going again. And, um, she was very kind because she let me do everything. But she knew that I was coming to the end, and she was right. And I knew I was probably coming to the end. I was probably stretching the moping out of it. Um, so with that week, I literally rang everyone, emailed everyone I knew, and I was lucky to have a great network and just said, I’m available, I’m here, i, uh, can help whether you want me just to turn up for an hour or a week, I don’t know. I’m here and I’m available if anybody wants me. As it happened, two or three people emailed me back and went, cool, I’d love to work with you. Um, I told them everything that happened. I was very open and said, you know, honestly, this thing just went really wrong on me. And they were like, um, if anything, it’s helped me in a weird way because I’ve experienced things that obviously a lot of people have experienced, but not many, I hope. Not, uh, too many people have to experience it. So, yeah, she helped me reading out of that time and find my feet again and get going again.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Just actually moving my microphone because I’m getting quite a lot of feedback here. Thank you for that. That was really important to share, because I know, as I said at the very beginning of this, how positive, how vibrant you are, and yet you have seen some real crappy times. And I think sometimes when you’re a, uh, sole business, sole printer, if they like to call it that, or you’re a small business owner, uh, or even if you’re in a corporate and you’re not necessarily enjoying your job, you feel lonely. And, um, you had Joe behind you. And I know I’ve got Dennis behind me. And it’s important that we do share that, uh, life can be tough. And before we started this call this morning, we were discussing about your phone, didn’t stop. You were going, why won’t people leave me alone? And maybe you could explore a bit more about that, about what it’s like now. Because you are super busy, aren’t you?

David Greenaway: Yeah, absolutely. Again, like everybody else, right? That 08:00 in the morning, the messages start pinging, team starts going, the calendar starts reminding me of everything. And there is this sometimes this sort of freneticism to it, isn’t there? I spend hours telling everybody else, hey, slow down. Control your diary. Yeah. I go away and just do exactly the opposite. I don’t know. Right. I’ll be honest, I coach loads of people around this stuff and then go and do it myself. Who knows? Right? Yeah, I’ll be honest about it. Have you? Because I am not perfect by any stretch. I get stuff wrong.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I really have to get bad feedback this morning. I don’t know why. No, it’s me. I think it’s my end anyway. So, behind the scenes, you must have had some of those, AHA, uh, moments. You must have had moments where you just went, yeah, that’s why I’m doing this, and no, that’s why I’m not doing that. And I know you’ve had a few of those, particularly around your new business, which is the coaching. And you’re very good at it on that.

David Greenaway: Yeah. So, I now realize it, but I haven’t for years. But I’ve been coaching my whole life and everything from teaching kids to play cricket, from running a very successful martial arts school through the in the early two thousand. Um, when I was running small teams, I would be coaching people. I had lots of employees through my life and coached them. I never really saw it as coaching. It was just me learning something and then helping someone else with it. And I never really put the two together. And when I came out of, um, the slump of the slump of 2018 business, a, um, great a great friend now, I’m sure she’ll be saying, Adele spoke to me and she became my first actual paying coaching client, where we spent an amount of time together. She gave me some money and we worked on her business together and it kind of went from there. And I got to be honest, it just felt so natural and still does. Even more so now. It just feels like this is who I am. This is what I was kind of meant to do. Um, it’s sort of a bit of a calling. And you always worry, Will it work? Will I actually help somebody? It’s all their faint noise, but touchwood. So far, everyone I’ve had the real privilege of working with just a fair number of people now, um, have made great progress and have achieved amazing things far beyond what I think they thought. Uh, to be clear, though, I don’t take all that credit. They have to do the work right. I just kind of point them in the direction they’ve got to go and do it. So, I don’t want to take their credit. They’ve done the effort, they’ve put the work in. But sometimes in life, like all of us, we all just need a little nudge in the right direction, don’t we? Which is where my phrase is, I’ve got your back came from because I kind of trade a bit around, I’ve got your back. Because when I asked everyone what they thought of me, that was the underlying thing was it always feels like, Dave, you’ve got our back. I kind of like that. And that sounded like a nice way to be in life, actually being able to have somebody’s back a bit, give them a hand. It seemed good to me, so that’s why I’m just working on it all the time.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah, I love that. I really do. Um, along the way, who has helped and inspired you?

David Greenaway: Oh, gosh, so many people there’s the cliche stuff. My wife and my kids, absolutely. Cliche or not, they have, and I’m sure they do, everybody who’s in that lucky position. Um, but there’s a lot of people that I don’t know, they’re authors or they’re big, sort of bigger coaches in the world. Michael Neil, Rich Letvin Steve Charles, Steve harvest. And there’s some amazing people that I consume, and I almost can’t read enough of them or listening to, but more locally, just some amazing family and friends. Um, I got an old coach, Rob Pickering, who’s, if he ever listens to this, he’s always been nagging away in the back of my head. He’s that guy to me, and I respect him for it. Lorraine Groves. He’s helped me out knowing an amazing coach, NLP therapist, and, um, hypothesis amazing woman, but genuinely, who’s really inspired me is everyone that I’ve worked with. I won’t really whistle their necks, but there’s some amazing people I’ve got to spend time with who I know that it’s not all about me inspiring them. It has to work both ways. And I’ve often left a session with one of these guys and gone, wow, blooming egg. They never know how much they’ve done for me. Um, so, yeah, I think everyone I’ve had the real privilege to work with have definitely had an impact on who I am today.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Why would and I know this answer because we talked, and I think this is the key thing. Coaches need coaching, and people forget that. We also need reminding that we need to practice what we’ve reached. Um, we’re so busy, and I do practice. I decided to embrace a lot of the stuff that I empower other people to do over the last year, because I decided that if I was telling people to do it, I needed to practice it myself. And I have found some of my techniques really useful. But why would somebody what is your ideal, or rather not ideal? Because, um who would come to you? Why would they come to you?

David Greenaway: Well, from where it is today, I genuinely think my typical client now is a client that is um, starting out is and I say starting out within the first couple of years, they’ve probably kind of got going, made some money and are just sort of a bit stuck, uh, quite not sure where to go next. And not just in very practical business, but also in themselves. There’s a level that changes a level of understanding that we need to have around ourselves and we uh, must find uh, ways to break free from the sort of limiting beliefs that the shackles of the past and the fears of the future. So, the coaching my life, m, and business stuff is all about very practical business. Hey, let’s do this campaign as much as it is. Let’s talk about that thing that you seem to tell me you’ve got no courage to do or that’s held you back all your life. So, there’s a real mixture. So, my clients are humans, right? Because we all have this stuff in one degree or another. And I think it’s fair to say that, uh, I spend time with the person, not their business, if that makes sense. It literally is that I want to teach them to fish, not do the fishing. So that’s always my focus is how can I help them go away and do the work to be better for themselves? Go away and think a bit better, go away and just have a clearer mind, a quieter mind. Um, and a lot of that has come from all the work that I do on myself. I do a tremendous amount of myself. And um, exactly as you just said, we’ve got to do what we preach, right? And I always know if I want to help anyone with something, I’ve got to know it myself and be at least trying it myself. Um, so I consume a lot, I read a lot. I got many courses and tons and tons of stuff, um, to try and stay in front of it, if in front above, just be more helpful, I suppose it’s better word.
Kirsty van den Bulk: Thank you for showing that, because it’s important, I think, um, there’s a lot of things that you’ve been doing recently, so I’ve noticed that you’ve been blogging, uh, I’ve read some of your articles, they’ve been insightful. And I know that you’re doing a thing on a Tuesday evening.

David Greenaway: Can you?

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah.

David Greenaway: So that was interesting. So, I ran this, um I helped look after the community cafe in Abingdon where I live, um, the Barnes Cafe. And I’m one of the directors there. Uh, but I get access to this beautiful little cafe and that’s enough. I’ll tell you about that. Another time. But, um, I did this thing where I wanted to do more talks. I really enjoy doing talks, and I know I have quite spiky points of view. I know I go against the grain of mainstream, um, thoughts, if you like, around business. I don’t like hustle. I’m not a big fan of goals and to do lists, and I can hear everyone going. But what I wanted to do was talk about this, but I didn’t want anyone to feel compelled or, um, that they had to commit massively to come and do anything. So, there’s no money, you don’t have to register, you don’t even have to tell me you’re coming. It was just 06:00 on a Tuesday. I will be there and I’m happy to kind of talk about all these different things and we’ll just talk. And if there was a big group, I would do a short talk and then we’ll all talk, discuss it. So, I had this lovely idea and, um, off I go every week, beautifully, Tuesday night. And the truth is, it’s not quite turned out where I hoped it might. Now have had a couple of people come along who have been amazing. Adele, one of them, and my friend Joanna, and another friend, Graham. But, uh, it’s just been one person. I’ve had one three weeks out of six where someone’s shown up and the other three where someone just gone home. Well, hang on, because you know what? I thought that at the start, and I’m okay with it, because I said that I didn’t want commitment. And I said if I go there, the worst that happens to me is I have a nice ten-minute walk. I read a book. Literally, I just read a book. I’ve got some decent quiet. I love my family dearly, but I get some decent quiet for half an hour. And the worst is I walk home and have a dinner. It’s not like a big, cumbersome, awful thing. So, I wanted to stick to my word on it, which was no pressure. It doesn’t matter, do or don’t. I’m here if you need me, but if you don’t, that’s cool, too. Uh, so I’m trying to stick to that.

Kirsty van den Bulk: This feedback is terrible. Unfortunately, 06:00 is just the wrong time for me. And that’s my feedback on it. Uh, because I’m getting ready for obviously, I’ve got a six rod, so I’m getting ready for bedtime. We’re, uh, winding down and there’s no, um I struggle, to be fair, I struggle for anything between six and eight, but then by 830, I want to be in bed.

David Greenaway: Yeah, when the time you do it, it’s not good for somebody. And I just picked a time that actually was reasonable for me. I could finish my day, wander down there, but it’s cool. I’m not worried about it. It just is what it is. Doesn’t matter and doesn’t mean anything other than if someone does turn up, I get to talk to someone for half an hour, which is lovely. Which is really lovely.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, this is where you get to turn the tables on me. You get to ask me anything. Then knowing you, it’s probably going to be spiky, it’s going to be controversial, and I need to probably have to go. That’s a great question. Let me think about that.

David Greenaway: If you want a spiky one, then the goals one has been on my mind. I’ve done quite a few sessions and talk talking about it recently. Um, so what is your opinion on, um, goal setting and chasing goals?

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, I do set goals. I don’t chase my goals. So, I do set goals. But my goals are moveable. Um, and I do believe that for me, and it’s how I work, is I have a long-term goal and I’ve got steps that I want to do along the way. But I’m very much aware that my whole path in life has weaved and it does meander and I, uh, get to where I’m supposed to be at that moment in time. I may take a rest at the crossroads and then I may pick up and I may move on. So, I do have long term goals. But actually my long term, big, big goal is actually a really big, important word. And it’s called happiness. So, for me, being happy is the biggest goal that I can ask for. Now, I’m not talking about happiness as in I’m happy today. I mean happiness and contentment and all those wonderful words. And that comes from being safe, it comes from being secure. It comes from a lot of things that I’ve had a not. It’s a difficult past. I’m not going to go into that because it’s too personal, but a difficult past that got me to where I am. And right now, I am happy. I’m content, I’m safe. I’ve been living in a tent, and I’ve lived in a campfire, and I’ve lived in a boat. And I’ve been ultimately off the scale and homeless. So, I don’t share that often. So, happiness to me is the biggest goal and achieving that every single day. And then, of course, happiness jumps into gratitude. So, I am grateful every single day for the amazing happiness that I have in my life. So, my goals are, um, more although they’re long term, they’re also daily. So, it’s happiness, it’s gratitude. So, it comes back to my goals, come back to my values. Maybe I do see goals differently to goals. So, I do set them, but they’re very much aligned to my heart and my head. And when I step out of my heart and my head, then I know that my energy goes out. So, they are important, but they’re not the be all and end all. Um, but I do have them. I don’t know if my goals are different, but happiness, which then cascades down to gratitude, contentment, and those values. So, yeah, interesting question because I’ve never been asked that. So, thank you.

David Greenaway: Yeah, it’s a spiky one. It has some certain camps. And, um, it’s, uh, something I’ve thought about, I think, because if you’re going to have a spiky point of view or something, you’ve got to really think about it and take your time with it and be willing to defend your opinion. Um, there’s a distinction there between saying something because it is just counterintuitive or provocative, just to get a reaction, actually saying something because you mean it and you’ve thought about it.

Kirsty van den Bulk: That brings me to the thing, if I can avoid this feedback called fact and social media. So social media is, and I know we’re going to run on a bit, but social media is contentious. You can either disrupt the market, you can go with the flow. Whatever you’re doing on social media, it must be fact. It must be fast, accurate, concise, and true. And you can be absolutely crucified on social media for having a spiky point of view. Um, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything like that happen to you.

David Greenaway: Not to me. Not in a big way. No. Nothing that’s ever perturbed me. I’ve had it more, um, again, gently. It’s not shocking, it doesn’t worry me, but I’ve had it more in live talks where, um, I can say something that I know is a bit counterintuitive to, again, this mainstream, often, not to be unkindly disparaging, but regurgitated information that just seems to be flopped over and over and over on LinkedIn and wherever. Um, but, yeah, sometimes I get people, but only because I’ve touched a nerve and it’s causing a, um, reaction. It’s asking of them to look at something a bit differently. And interestingly when that happens, I often find by the end of it is that person I get to spend some time with after the talk who just kind of goes out. That was interesting. Um, because I never say anything about this case because I think I’m right and everyone else is wrong. Honestly, everyone’s right for them with the thinking that they’ve got like you or do you. But I think it’s important that we get off the fence. That if we have an opinion, we get off the fence. And as I say, my clients get off the fence because you get splinters on the fence. And I don’t want Splinters. So, I jump down off my fence, and I go, this is what I think. This is where but for me, none of you is wrong. You all do you? But this is, for me, what this thing means and is. And, um, I think maybe we just need some more voices where people on, um, Derek stages regurgitate in the same old stuff. Um, because there’s more out there, there’s so much more humor.

Kirsty van den Bulk: We’ve had a couple of comments. Um, so Annette has joined us this morning. Now I actually have to have face to face coffee in real life. Uh, okay. Uh, so Annette has told me that there is a problem with the stream because the podcast keeps jumping back to the beginning. He’s done that about half a dozen times. So there really is something going on this morning with the Internet. I don’t know why. Um, I will have a recording of this, and if the stream isn’t working on LinkedIn, I will be able to, uh, download it and then put an actual recording of this up because it will record locally. But I did say there were some issues with the, uh, feedback. But she also said good morning. I needed to hear this. And Gilly. Bless you, Gilly. She joined us and said, Happy Friday. So, it’s been a lovely conversation this morning. I like your spikey. Keep it going. We need to prod. We need to do thank you for joining me this morning.

David Greenaway: Welcome. Thanks for having me. It’s been a blast. Lovely. See you again. Bye. Um.