The Wise Why

Episode #52

Episode #052

#52 Dan Mather – Mindset For Your Sucesss

by | 24 Mar,2023

About This Episode

During the conversation, Dan shares his inspiring journey from hitting rock bottom to building a successful 7-figure businessman, emphasizing the importance of mindset in achieving success.

Kirsty met Dan while at Hanwha Vision and supported him in growing his business JKE. Dan’s relentless drive and determination have played a crucial role in his success, and his resilience in the face of challenges has strengthened his character.

Dan Mather Joins Kirsty van den Bulk liveon The wise why podcast, Dan’s early experiences, such as living with a French family at the age of 14 without speaking the language, inspired him to study French for business as part of his university course. He later learned Greek after being intrigued by the writing on a water bottle.

Despite facing numerous challenges and being let down by a previous business partner, Dan’s positive mindset and unwavering spirit have enabled him to overcome obstacles and build a thriving business with the support of his family. Dan emphasizes that mindset is the most powerful tool available to all of us.

His story is a testament to the power of positivity and determination to achieve success.

Listen to this incredibly empowering and motivating episode of The Wise Why podcast.

Episode #52 : Full Transcription

This episode video stream is compromised as Dan streamed from his car as his son was interviewing for college to carry on the family business.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Hello and welcome to the Wise Why. This morning, I am joined by Dan Mathers. Uh, and wow, do we go back. And Dan is inspirational. He is dialing in from the car and he will explain why. But Dan is one of those people that has been right down at the depths of despair, and I do mean despair. And instead of it allowing it to define him, he picked himself up, he dusted himself off, and he started all over again to build a seven figure, uh, business. So, as usual, The Wise Why is not about me, it is about my guests. So dan take the floor.

Dan Mather: Thank you. Where do we start? Um, where do we start?

Kirsty van den Bulk: Well, I guess I met you what was it, 2015?

Dan Mather: I think must have been about 2015. Yes. Obviously, what I do is fire and security systems, commercial fire and security systems. Um, so we travel up and down the country and in a previous life, uh, we met each other. Um, you introduced Hanwha vision to us, or Samsung, as it was at the time. Um, and we struck a really good relationship. And then we signed up to your partnership program. Things took a turn for the worse at that company and I was able to set up what I had to set up on my own. And thanks to the relationship that we had, I was able to secure a job because I was the only person that knew how to do it. I designed the system. It wasn’t as easy as that. I still had to go through a tender process, but it was a massive tick in the box. The fact that I designed the system and was able to take um, on the biggest contract that I’ll probably ever have, which has got me to where I am today as a seven-figure business.

Kirsty van den Bulk: No, well, I remember that phone call. I remember you going, I don’t know what to do. It was that thing. Because obviously, to be a partner, you had to achieve a certain amount of sales. You had to have a target, you had to do marketing, you had all these things and you were suddenly there, dead in the water, and there is no other way to say it. Dead in the water with a huge tender. And how are you going to deliver it? But you know what? With the help of Stewart, with the help of Frankie Bellavia, Midwich, uh, Hanoi, we’ve made it work. And I have watched you grow and fly. And I love what you do. I love how your branding has evolved. And this is what people don’t realize is when you set up JKE, it didn’t even look like it does today, does it?

Dan Mather: No, not at all. We’re on our third round of branding now, so we did the first one, which was probably better than the second one, to be honest. But it was all done on um, so it was never really authentic, it didn’t allow us to scale up. And I started off just being CCTV. Um, but then when we started bolting on the access control, the intruder alarms, and more importantly, the fire alarm systems, we decided to rebrand as JK Fire and Security rather than just security. Um, so a good friend of mine, uh, Glenn Signal, um, Co, his company is, um, great graphic designer. Um, I had a conversation with him, and he came back with a full brand image, typography iconography, just everything, the logos, and um, we’ve been able to use that as marketing assets to be able to push the brand forward to be great.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Um, and you’re using video. One of the things I really like about you is you’re not afraid to try something new. And M, your positive mindset is incredible, but you try something new. Like going live with me today is not necessarily something that people in the fire and security market feel comfortable to do, but here you are in the hot seat.

Dan Mather: Well, I’ve always kind of been like that said in my bio. I’ve been able to go back and join the dots. And when I was 14, the French Exchange came up at school and I was like, yeah, put my name down. I didn’t even speak the language. But, um, it inspired me to then go. I mean, when I came back, and I wanted to do it for GCSE. No, uh, for a level. Sorry, teachers turn out. Really think about this. I, uh, think you should maybe think of another subject to go on. I was like, no, I really want to do French. I really enjoyed it out in France and I picked up a few little bits. Um, so I put my head down, I was predicted a D stroke E at GCSE, and I came out with a B. Just put my head down, just did it. But you jump in with 2ft and that’s kind of the process I’ve gone through all my life. And I didn’t realize until I’ve had to do that by a few well.

Kirsty van den Bulk: But this is the thing, that’s exactly what I saw you do. And when I was deciding to set up, obviously it was opening doors at the time. Um, I remember the phone call I gave, I phoned you and went, Am I mad? And you were like, uh, what’s it really like to be out there? Because at the time I was still working for Hanwha Vision, I was working my notice and I got this little idea that I thought, may work, may work, may not work. And it was really that phone call. Whilst I was in the car outside, I can’t remember where I was grabbing a coffee was really important to me because M, you really supported me and made it possible for me to believe that I could do this.

Dan Mather: Yeah, anyone could do anything. This is the whole thing. It’s all about the mindset. And I’m a massive, massive believer, uh, about mindset. And that’s what I’ve worked the hardest on, because I knew I had to get out of my own way. I knew that I had to go from being royally shafted, nearly losing everything. Yeah, Christmas Day, 2016, in the kitchen, crying. Not because I’d not been able to provide a Christmas, but because I had and I just didn’t know if the following year I was going to be able to I didn’t know if I was going to lose the house. But that was that brief moment, that was that little lapse, that reset, if you like, that made me say, right, 2017, this is it. I’ve got to make sure that this time next year that I can provide. Uh, so we’ve got the ball rolling in January with the ideas. February, got the initial brand registered, uh, the website and the domain name, and then spent a few months just really just working on me and how I can deliver it and what I have to do, because you end up we had to play a massive game because I couldn’t let on what I was doing, because I still need my income. Um, but I knew that I had to replace that income in a relatively short so I knew that I had to work harder on myself than anything else. And I did. And I still do now. I still massively believe in it.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And it’s incredible to see because I watched you go through that journey. And this is what people don’t necessarily know about you, is that you really I remember the call when you said in fact, I remember you telling me about how you didn’t know if you were going to survive and provide, um, and, yeah, it was really tough to listen to that call. I’m not going to sit there and say it wasn’t it was really tough, uh, because at that point, I wasn’t a sole planner. I had no idea what you were facing. Now I do, and I’ve got my hat off to you. And watching you grow your business to seven figures is just phenomenal. So I know you had and you relied on a lot of support in those early days. Who was it? Who was there?

Dan Mather: There was a lot of people that was there for me, obviously. My family, close family, my parents, uh, really were a massive rock to me and helped, um, so much so it came out that my dad said, oh, when you were telling me all this, I wasn’t sure, but I had to support you. It doesn’t matter what other people think. Perception is projection is the phrase, and what they projected is what I perceived that I could do it. And it really helped. But then I had three close friends as well, and all three of them I was able to talk to. One of them was really rooting for me in a business way because he’s a businessman himself. Another one was just a really good mate who was just like, uh, let me go and punch him in the face. And the other one was just one of my best mates. And he’s really supportive. And I, uh, literally would not be here without him. So there’s three close friends, all from different walks of life, all with three different approaches, and obviously the family as well.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And I remember you saying to me, get your team around you. And I’m sitting here now with a team going, yeah, you need that team. You need those people when you’re feeling low or you’ve got a celebration. So something happened yesterday that I wanted to celebrate. My hubby was at work, so I couldn’t call him. And I tried to phone my mom because obviously you call your mom. Um, and I couldn’t get a hold of her. And then it was like, actually, I’ve got my VA that I called. I couldn’t get hold of her. But I sent her a message. And then she came back with a whoop whoop. And it’s all those things about having that support network around you to catch you when you’re down, but to lift you. When are you celebrating? I mean, my goodness, wins is massive to celebrate. Or at least I believe you should celebrate your wins. What about you?

Dan Mather: I don’t do it enough. My, uh, entrepreneurial curse, if you like, is I always look into the future when I don’t have any work. And it makes me strive for going to get the work. So when I get a win. But this is something I’m working on now, is we’ve had some really positive stuff this week, and there could be some come off the back of it. And I’m, um, in the mindset now that I’m just going to go out there and I’m just going to celebrate it, because that’s what inspires you to go to and do it again and again and again. So I’ve got to start living more in the present. Present with an eye on the future. With an eye on the present.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah. That’s really important because otherwise you’ll just drive yourself. There’s a great podcast, actually, with Steve Rush called The Leadership Hacker. And, um, I’ve been talking a lot about it recently, which is the Hot Sauce Principle, which is written by an amazing guy called Brendan. But I can’t think of his earning. So I’ll put a link into his book. But it really helps me sometimes when I’m feeling like I’m overloaded. Um, I’m not celebrating enough because I’ve got a habit, like you to think, right, I’ve got work up to this point. What am I going to do in six months time? And I do forget, thankfully. I joined the tech pixies. And they make you celebrate your wins. So, they do it weekly. So, you always think, what have I achieved this week, which is a great place for mindset. But uh, the other side is as I’m striving to get more work, sometimes I can get overwhelmed with what I’ve got to do and that’s where the hot sauce principle comes in because it makes me allocate the hot sauce bottles in the right order, if that makes sense.

Dan Mather: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve got that with overwhelm. Like you say, you try and do everything yourself as well. And this is the key critical thing about team is I’ve always had the team and I grew the business to a certain level. And M I kept the same team and I carried on growing the business and it’s only now that I’m putting the right team in place to get and I should have done this twelve months ago. But yeah, you have to be flexible, don’t you? We make it up. Everyone makes it up at the end of the day.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Um, or rather I was very lucky to be accepting some offset courses, so I’ve had a lot of support and business coaching and training to help me learn how to scale the business. Have you had anyone along the way helping you do that?
Dan Mather Yes, for the past four years I’ve had a business coach, who he sort of, um, fired a rocket up the backside, if you like. So, he introduced me to Grant Cardone. And if you’ve come across Grant Cardone.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Can you explain a bit?

Dan Mather: Yes. Okay, so uh, his principle is the Ten X Principle, which means all you have to do is apply ten times the action. That’s what you would do. So if you want to make ten sales calls, make 100 because you might not get ten times the results, but you get more results than you would if you just did ten calls and it’s just apply ten times the action in everything you do. Massive action. Massive action. Massive action. Daily basis. He says no white space in the calendar. I’ve tried that for a few weeks and it’s tiring. I’m going to keep a little bit of white space in the calendar, but yeah, just no white space in the calendar. Ten times the action. And just take the massive action. Yeah, but you have to have the right mindset as well to go with it. Um, the other one, which was a massive, massive it gives me like a paradigm or shift, um, was the point of power. And I preach this quite a lot to be fair to my team and everybody I talk to, it is the point of power. If you below the point of power, you live in a world of blame, excuse and denial. If you live above the point of power, it’s ownership, accountability and responsibility. And that is the one thing that really put me on the pathway to where I am today, was just taking ownership, accountability, responsibility for everything I do in life. Because otherwise you’re living the victim mentality.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah, a really good point there, because that’s what I did when I got divorced, was, um, I took that ownership, and I accepted my role in the destruction of the marriage. And I guess that’s where I shifted into going into the point of parenthood, of blame. And I do my best, like you, to not blame and go, no, let’s look at this from a much broader perspective, and let’s understand where we are. There is no blame, there is no fault. Spent my life saying this to my daughter. No one’s at fault. This is what’s happened. Let’s work it back. I’m sure you do.

Dan Mather: Absolutely.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Something that I’m intrigued about is, uh, there must have been m moments along the way where you just went, I cannot do this, or this is exactly what I want to do. I call them AHA moment where you went, AHA. Or so I’m wondering if you had any of those along your way.

Dan Mather Absolutely. But that’s why you need purpose. It’s your wise. It’s that one thing that would keep you awake at night should you not achieve it. And I’m here for my kids. I’m here to provide for my kids, to provide forever for my kids with the right level of education to go with it. Because you can give handouts all you like. You see kids going off the rails, but if you got the right education to go with it and as you know, this is why I’m in the car right now.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I was going to say, explain why you’re in the car right now.

Dan Mather: That’s it. Because I’ve been able to give my son the opportunity to come and have an apprenticeship with Jke. So he’s just enrolling at college right now to enable that. We get the options. You don’t have to. Um, but he has decided to. So then it’s my job then, to continue that trajectory for him.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Um, as I said, inspiring from a man when I met who lost everything to where you are now, and bringing your son into the business. I mean, can you just acknowledge this for a minute and sit in that win and take a breath? Because that is absolutely amazing. So I’m going to do this.

Dan Mather: Thank you. But not only that, I also employ my brother as my senior engineer and my mom in the office.

Kirsty van den Bulk: It is and there’s an interesting story about your brother, isn’t there? I seem to remember you telling me there was a really interesting story at some point about your brother joining the business. I hope I’ve got that right.

Dan Mather: Yeah. Um, he came from the leisure industry, so he had no knowledge about phone security. Um, I got to a point where I’d just been awarded a big contract, and it was only me, so I knew I needed help. He had to come out of the leisure industry, and I said to him, right, come on then, Tom. Let’s see what we can do for you. Uh, I just met him at the pub one night and said, I’ve got this opportunity, you know, my mindset, you know the point of power. You know, I live above the point of power. And, um, if you feel that you can come in and bring that to the table, then it’s all yours. So, he did, and we went through the training process, which is quite tedious sometimes, because I’m not the most patient of people when it comes to doing that. However, he has got the perfect mindset as well. He’s like a cookie cut of me now. And he’s really helped elevate the company to where it is now. So, we’ve probably grown three times three while he’s been with us. And the fact that I can leave him to deal with the engineering side is spot on.

Kirsty van den Bulk: It blows my mind to think where you were, to look at where you are now and how much you’ve achieved and how much your family have been with you on that journey and are going to continue with you. And that’s why I asked you on the wise. Why? Because I just think it’s inspirational. We’ve had some lovely comments. I’m just going to flip over to them. So, we’ve had, um, Annette join us, and she’s like, the support network is ever so important. It really is. Um, Haley has joined us. Haley joseph. Um, I don’t know if you’ve worked, Haley. If not, you two need to connect. Um, fascinating insight, as I can relate to starting from below zero and find myself moving forwards positively. Really great to hear as the moving forwards is the easy part. Letting go of the reason you have to start over with something I’m only just grappling with. Good for you, Dan. You two really must connect. Um, and then Annette is like, yes, we must teach the point of power to children. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, Ina has joined us and said in very inspiring chat, so you are, as we’re sitting here celebrating your wins and actually inspiring people. So, we know that your family have helped you. We know you’ve had those, AHA, moments where you’ve wondered, what should I be doing? What’s your plan? What’s your goal? Um, people love goals. People don’t like goals. But if you were to visualize your future, uh, where would you like to be in five years?

Dan Mather: Uh, well, we had a strategy session yesterday with, uh, myself, ah, as a marketing director. Um, and we were kind of starting to plot this journey. So, once again, it’s starting with a team. So, this year we’re going to be implementing the correct team to then be able to take the business forward. Ultimately, I want to replace myself within the business so I can start stepping back a little bit and enjoying it, focusing on other projects. Um, where do I want to be in five years? I want the business to be fully systemized. I want it to have a full team in its place. And, uh, I want to be aiming towards eight figure business.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And I believe you will do that. Uh, I believe you will do that, because I have seen I mean, you’ve got to remember, we are in 2023 and all of this happened in 2016. So, look how far you have come in such a short space of time. It’s incredible. And you’re working with some really big companies, and I know that there are a couple of people I would like to shout out because I know that they’ve supported you along the way. So we’ve talked about Stuart, we’ve talked about Frankie. I’d also like to just mention Gabriel Holcomb and also Lynn Woodgates, because without them, when I left Hanwha Vision or when I was off on, um, childcare, uh, leave, um, you wouldn’t have had that support either. So, I just want to shout out to them because they took on the mantle when I wasn’t there. And then when I came back, uh, after the maternity leave, I came back. Um lynn flew with you, didn’t she?

Dan Mather: Yeah. So, they all realized the potential, the pond we’re fishing in, if you like, so they could see the potential. And they really helped push, um, the Gold partnership in a relatively short period of time, um, without hitting the target, because it was the potential that enabled me to be more competitive and to win the work. So, it was great. It was amazing. And, yeah, Lynn introduced me to, um, the likes of Lush, where we’ve done several of their stores now, um, and really help with the NHS contracts as well. So, yeah, it’s great.

Kirsty van den Bulk: It is incredible that if you get the right work, goes back to that team. Because team isn’t just about the people that you work with sometimes. It’s the other people that I was talking about this the other day, about your customer. Your, um, customer isn’t just the person that you’re selling to, your consumer isn’t just the person who’s consuming your product. There is that moment where your customer is the people that you are talking to that are part of internally as well as externally. Um, I’d probably going to explain that particularly well, but I know that we had that push and pull because although you were my customer, we were also a team. And that sometimes gets missed out, particularly when we look at vendor sales and the way that the whole structure works, because I worked very closely with Frankie and Stewart and they worked very closely with you, but then I also work closely with you, and that’s exactly the same that gave you lending. So people don’t necessarily understand how channel sales work, which is why I want to explain that little bit, if that makes sense.

Dan Mather: Yeah, no, absolutely. I’ve got that now as well with, um, uh, another guy called Nick Riley. If he watches this. Um, he also has, for the past few years, has really helped, um, JK as well, um, with the channel partnership with the supplier client relationship. Um, so, once again, all based on potential and what we’re doing, and as long as I pay the bill on time, that they just keep supplying me and keep the technical support and I can ring him up at any time of the day. So, yeah, it’s great.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I’m loving those little cogs that make it all work and pull together to create a business. Because a business is never just one thing, is it? It’s cogs that work in conjunction, that build the team that build those relationships. So, I just love the way you described that and, uh, the point of power. This is where you get to turn the tables. This is where you get to ask me a question. I never know what’s coming, and I always worry slightly.

Dan Mather: Okay, so I’m all about future pacing, but it’s all about using your experience in life, business, et cetera, to join the dots, to put you on that trajectory into the future. So where do you see yourself based on your experience, life experience, business experience?

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, really good question, because six months ago, a year ago, I had a complete idea. Um, now I’m kind of sitting on a surfboard. I’ve got a long-term goal that I would like to open a social enterprise to help people who, like me, didn’t necessarily do particularly well at school because we were much more vocational and so could, uh, find more practical skills. So if you’ve gone through school and you find yourself at, uh, 1819 and you’ve done an apprentice that didn’t quite work, or you just went off traveling and it didn’t work, or you’ve actually ended up finding yourself homeless, and that’s a big one because of choices that have made and you just have no skills. And I would like to set up it sounds ridiculous, but it’s a farm where you come and get those skills and you work and you build yourself up. So, it’s a very simple social enterprise where you walk away empowered. If you’re homeless, then there is a support mechanism in place. Um, it is drugs and alcohol free, obviously. Um, but that’s long term and I don’t know when that will happen. And it will happen because that is the ultimate goal is to set this up, because I think it’s something that was really important is to help people that can slip through the net, because I slip through the net. Um, but with the business, really interesting because I’ve just expanded, so I’ve got somebody who I’ve outsourced. So, I have Ocho Works, who do my website, I have Zoe, who’s my VA. I have some new trainers coming on board. So. Hi, Jill. Um, and so my team is expanding and I’m growing. And a bit like you, really. I would like to be able to take a step back at some point. Because watching how I’m empowering Zoe and she’s very fresh, the business, but watching how I’m empowering her and leaving her to do her work, I know at some point there’ll be somebody doing what I do now, today, and I’ll be off doing other things and expanding, which will get me to the end goal of the farm. So, yeah, difficult to explain it because I wasn’t even sure I would be able to expand. So to be able to sit here today, knowing that I’ve expanded and brought people in, it’s quite powerful, exciting and scary, if that makes sense. You’re laughing at me.

Dan Mather: No, it’s absolutely you’re right. Absolutely right. And that’s the fun of it. The analogy the other day said to me about an, uh, elastic band, if you want to stretch yourself, if you stretch an elastic band, it comes with the tension, the stress.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah.

Dan Mather: That’s just the mechanics of life. And as long as you’ve got the right mindset, again, to go through that, to go through that tension, that stress, same as an elastic band does, ah, on a basic level.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, I do a thing with, um, my daughter, actually, it’s a really good point to talk about the, um, window of what’s it called. It’s not the window of tension, but when you get really, really stressed, and eventually you do. I love my daughter, but there are points where she’s pushed my boundaries too fast. So, I’m going to just talk about boundaries the other way, just quickly. And I was trying to explain to her window of tolerance, I was trying to explain to her about this window of tolerance of where I’m really good, but eventually, like an elastic band, I will snap. And I couldn’t work out how to explain it to her, so I blew up a balloon. I didn’t have an elastic band at the time. And I told her to push it and push it and play it, play with it and push it and push it and push it until it popped. And of course it popped. And I went, what do you think that’s like? And she went, your temper, mummy. But, yes, you are right. You have to work with that tension. And with more money, more salary, more staff comes more stress, more strain. But at the same time, for me, at the moment, there’s a relief because I’m not trying to juggle everything.

Dan Mather: Yeah, absolutely.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Um, no, you can continue on.

Dan Mather: I was going to say, I think this is why in the world of entrepreneurship, so many statistics say 90% of business. Yeah, I don’t believe that they do. I just believe that people to give up because they don’t understand that rubber band concept that you have to take an element of stress and you have to push through some boundaries. So, it’s not because of lack of work, necessarily. It’s just the lack of understanding. Of what they’re getting into. And I think if that’s taught and going back to what you said about what you want to do to help other people, people that slip through the net, I personally think that the system is broken a little bit because the education system doesn’t help people actually go out there and build business. But when you do go out and build business, you get hammered for it by the government with taxes, et cetera. But actually you’re providing jobs, income, an economy. I, uh, think if people left with those skills and got into the real world with those skills so I’m a big advocate for that as well, for trying to and that’s why I try and get on videos a little bit and just working on something now to try and try and educate the younger generation as well. Um, because if they come into the real world knowing what we know now, then it’s a lower boundary barrier to entry, if you know what I mean.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah, no, absolutely. Because there is a thing that I was coaching years and years. I mean, I’m going back years, uh, before we go to the comments, but years ago, um, I was coaching a businessman from Turkey to speak conversational English. I mean, I’m going back to I was in my twenty s, and he called himself a young businessman. His name was Sammy, called himself a young businessman. Um, and I was fascinated by this because he was 50. And I said, why’d you call yourself a young businessman because you’re 50. And he went, Because in the world of business, I’m still young. I didn’t understand that until a couple of weeks ago. And it was like, wow. That’s what he meant. Generally what he meant. We’ve had some lovely comments. So Faz has joined us. Um, great interview. That five year question is always interesting. Some of us don’t even know where we want to be in five months. Yeah, I know that one. I sat on the crossroads for a long time. Did you?

Dan Mather: Yeah, absolutely. Taken a lot of inner searching to find exactly where you want to be.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And then Luke. I love Luke. So Luke, um, has been my support for many years. And lean on your support network. I do. Luke, um, and talk through feelings of frustration. And, um, Luke, get that business going because you are incredible. And great question, Dan. Um, love Annette. Your daughter sounds so smart. She is. She scares me. And Luke says all the best treasures are very deep, so got to be prepared to dig. Worth it when you get through it, though. Absolutely. I thank you so much, Dan, for sharing your story, for inspiring the audience, because your journey is inspirational. And thank you for giving me your time.

Dan Mather: No, thank you.

In this episode:

00:00 Hello
00:46 Dan Mathers
02:09 Life in business
05:58 Mindset after being shafted
10:28 Celebrating wins
13:26 Ten X
16:09 Aha Moments
18:39 Point of power
22:43 Life after parental leave
26:17 Kirsty’s dreams
29:36 Window of tolerance
31:51 Young Businessman
32:57 Questions
33:53 Close

Connect with Dan:

Linkedin: @dan-mather-jke-security

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