The Wise Why

During this episode we explore the subject of perfection and how trying to be perfect will limit your choices, the struggles faced when launching a startup and how Kamila empowers women to find and use their voice.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Hello and, uh, welcome to The Wise Why. I am joined by a lady whose surname, if I get it correct, will be amazing, but she is an inspiration. She reached out to me about, oh, somewhere mid last year. We had a conversation. She runs a group, and she is supportive of women, she empowers women. But as usual, I’ll let her tell a story because you really don’t need to hear about Kirsty Van den Bulk. So let me see if I can get your name correct. It is Kamila Wolyniec.

Kamila Wolyniec: Very close. Thank you for having me, Kirsty. Real pleasure to be here. Really excited for this conversation.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, explain, um, to the audience what you do, because I know, but it’s far more interesting if it comes from you.

Kamila Wolyniec: Thank you. And it’s always a million-dollar question, because I’ve never been very good at keeping it concise. Let’s see how we go with that. So, just a little bit about me. Um, I grew up in Poland, so that’s where the signing comes from. Not very easy to pronounce. A lot of people ask me to spell it still. I have lived in Australia for the past three years. My background in terms of my career is in human resources. I worked in human resources for over ten years. Um, and it’s been a bit of a journey to get me to where I am today, which is running my own business, my own coaching business, supporting women who I, um, identify as quiet achievers to help them find their voice and buck themselves up, speak, uh, up on their own behalf, advocate for themselves, ask for what they want. Essentially, use that voice by using an authentic way that doesn’t feel cringy, that doesn’t feel like they need to sacrifice or compromise who they are. And as a result, they’re able to go after the opportunities that they want and deserve, and thrive in their career and finally feel fulfilled, feel like they’re using their gifts and are, um, on track to the goals that they set for themselves, but potentially never meet because they hold themselves back by not speaking up.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I love it. And the reason I love it, and you know, I love it. I love it because I worked in a male dominated environment, and I remember walking in and thinking, I’ve got to put my armor on. And I think and I say this with respect to all my colleagues who I loved very, very much, but I did have to put my armor on. I did have to fight my corner. It was nothing about them. And I had to learn not to be screechy. I had to learn to be as strong and as rooted as they were. And it was the best time of my life, working for working with Colin and, um, john and Chris Perry and everyone else at Hanwell. So, I’ve mentioned it. I loved it. But it was difficult as a woman. And I love that you empower women to do this and find their voice. Can you explain a little bit more about how you do that?

Kamila Wolyniec: How I do that? So, I tend to work with my clients one on one. Um, I am in the process of creating group coaching program and an online course, which there will be more to come on that, but right now, I’m working one on one because I think the work that I do is quite deep work. So, whilst they might come to me with challenges, um, on the surface, coming to me with wanting to have more confidence to speak up, or be more confident in their career, or achieve their goals, or ask, uh, for promotion, it could be a quite superficial thing that they come to me with. But the work that we do is very transformational work. So, we go quite deep, not only in terms of very deeply connecting with the vision and the purpose and what it is they want to create in their lifetime and within their career. Because our career is just part of our life, right? We want to look at the bigger picture. But the challenges that really prevent us from doing that are, um, very much internal. And there’s just so many layers to go through to get to that point where we do feel comfortable being ourselves, asking stupid questions, putting ideas forward that might be shut down, for example, or asking for something and being rejected. So, getting comfortable with that takes a lot of work in terms of self-acceptance, ditching perfectionism, being okay with making mistakes and not making that mean something about us. So that is what I do. So, I have a framework that I work with my clients, too, and I call it Flame. My business name is New Flame Coaching. And the framework is about focusing first and foremost on what’s important, what matters the most, getting really clear on your values, then letting go of some of the things that aren’t serving us. Um, there’s societal expectations, those external factors that the pressures, the internal things as well, that we’re holding on to, that we think are helping us, but they might not be. Like, perfectionism is one example. And then it’s about acceptance. Just getting deep with accepting who you are, the gifts that you have, realizing your potential, realizing your uniqueness, all the great things you have to offer. And then, um, the next step is about moving forward. So how do you then take that knowledge, that self-acceptance, everything that you’ve built for yourself, and start taking action so that you can start taking responsibility into taking ownership for your career and for your success? Because very often, we can sit in the victim mindset and just give up and maybe label ourselves as introverted or not confident, or maybe this isn’t for me. Maybe I’m not meant to be the next CEO or whatever it is that they aspire to be, and we give up. So, it’s really about taking action, being intentional, and really imperfect. Action is the key thing here. So really empowering that, and then finally empowering themselves to be able to go on and do that for themselves. So, I not only help them through it, but I also teach them coaching techniques that they can apply to themselves and for themselves going forward, so they no longer need me. And that’s my goal.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I absolutely love it. And the reason I love it is I’ve got a six-year-old, and I watched my six-year-old, and she’s striving for perfection. And I must explain to her that perfection is a moving target. I’m working on her now, but when I was growing up, the expectations and the way the media portrayed women, and the way that we are supposed to be the perfect mum and the perfect person in the office, and perfection, that word comes in everywhere. And I broke up with perfection about two years ago. Um, and I did. I had this whole conversation with it and told it to go. Treated a bit like an ex-boyfriend and dumped it.

Kamila Wolyniec: I love it, and I adopt that. That’s brilliant. Yes. And one of the things as well, that I have learned through my own journey and my own relationship with perfection is which I would say probably I’m still hung, um, onto it a little bit, maybe give it a call here and there, be a boyfriend. But I am realizing that it is more of a protection mechanism than anything else. It’s not really serving me if I want to be perfect. There is no such thing. First, it’s very subjective, and it really is just about protecting ourselves, because we think that whatever it is that we’re doing or putting out day is not good enough. So, we just keep working on it until it’s perfect, but it never is, and then never actually sees light of day. So that’s something I really learned, that if you want to grow, if you want to learn, if you want to actually be seen and have been recognized for what you have to offer, you’ve got to be okay with making those mistakes and getting things wrong sometimes.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So important. And watching my daughter, she said to me something really wise this week, and I didn’t mean really wise, because I said to her, uh, we were talking about swimming, and she’s she’s actually a very, very good swimmer. She’s amazing. And, um, she’s swimming with eight, nine-year-olds, and she’s only six, so you can imagine she’s good. She’s a fish in water. And they’re saying, if you wanted to, you could take this seriously, and you could train to come here to go to the Olympics. And we were explaining that she would have to learn to accept failure because she wouldn’t always win. And her words were, well, that’s okay, because I’ll be an adult by then, so I’ll be able to accept failure. And it was just this beautiful yeah, she comes up with some real great wisdom, but of course, somewhere along the line, the wisdom that we have that innocence that, uh, we have in childhood, uh, it’s like, she’s been upset the other day, and I was like, I hate it when you’re upset. I get really upset. And she went, no, let’s focus on the happiness. The sadness has gone. And you sit there going, where does this wisdom that we have in children, where does it get replaced with that internal dialogue on that?

Kamila Wolyniec: Yes, I do. I think, um, everyone is affected by it. I think women, which is also why I tend to focus on working with women, because we grow up with a set of stories that we tend to hear a lot. And as you said, when we’re younger, when we’re children, we have this curiosity, you know, and this hunger for life. We’re fearless. We do things. We’re not worried about people judging us or telling us off or looking at us a certain way. And over time, when we start hearing those stories, like, be seen but not hurt. Don’t be too loud, don’t be too obnoxious or calm down, don’t be so emotional. Get over it. All those stories and all those expectations, there’s obviously things like, um, the societal roles that we play and the role that woman plays. Still, even though we have gone such a long way and we are out there going after amazing careers, learning businesses, those expectations haven’t gone away in terms of being the care giver, the nurturer, being at home and giving being the perfect woman. Perfect mum, perfect. Um, girlfriend doing amazingly at work. Being super fit, looking great. Having an Instagram account that’s getting a great following. We expected to do it all. And I think over time, we take those layers and layers and layers of stories we hear. We start making them mean something about us. We add our own stories, our own flavors. And over time, we build this armor around us, and we feel like it’s no longer safe to be ourselves and to be free and to express ourselves, our creativity, our gifts, the things that maybe we’re curious about, that we’d like to try, but we might have been told as a child, that’s silly. You’re not going to make money from it. You need a real job.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Oh, my goodness. That’s a trigger for me. You need a real job. Do you know how many times because I trained to be an actor, so do you know how many times when I wasn’t working as an actor, I got asked by family members? They didn’t mean it. Have you got a proper job yet? I went to drama school. I have a degree in wow, have you got a proper job yet? And I did lots of jobs when I wasn’t acting, but that is still a trick. It’s really interesting because I didn’t think about that. As soon as you said it, it was like, oh, my goodness. And yet I’d worked on perfume recounters, I’d sold computers, I’ve been a trainer, but I haven’t got a proper job because I wasn’t working. Wow. That’s really interesting how what you were saying about the layers, because not many things actually get me still, but that one did, because being an old bag and that’s something also being an old bag, uh, when you hit the metaphors, you just go, yeah, I’m going to throw all that away. Because you can embrace the crone and you can be grumpy. And it is very freeing. I’d like to know how you got from Poland to Sydney.

Kamila Wolyniec: It’s a long-winded way. I followed my heart, is the short answer. Um, my partner grew up here. We lived in London, actually, so in the UK for some time together. So, I do call UK. My second home. First is Poland, Australia third. Um, I’ve been here for about three years now, so at the age of 18, I’ve moved over to the UK just for the summer, for a couple of months to see what it’s like. Twelve years later, I was still there, um, studied there, did my psychology degree in HR, masters in HR. And then over time, as we were sort of living our life London is amazing. Such a lively, vibrant town, but it gets quite exhausting. And I think I was getting to that point where I was just feeling tired of the crowds, of the commute, and we decided that we wanted to move somewhere else. And where’s that place? And that was very exciting because the options were endless. We had so many things on the table, but in the end, Australia seemed like the best, um, of both worlds. A place where he grew up. We’ve got that support network, but also where we can really grow our careers. There’s lots of opportunity and potential here, and the lifestyle can’t really get better than that.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And look at you. You are incredibly brave. I mean, not only do you inspire women, but you do it yourself. And you’re brave because you’re now running your own business. So that takes courage and that’s a journey on experience.

Kamila Wolyniec: Um, thank you.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah. Um, I’m sure you’ve had your ups and your downs, and I wondered because there’ll be people that the ups and the downs in a small business are also the same ups and downs that you get when you’re working for a company. It’s just the only big difference. Although, saying that when I worked on the road as a channel manager, I was out on the road a lot, so that was just as lonely. But what’s it like transitioning to being a small business owner from working for a company?

Kamila Wolyniec: It’s a journey, certainly. It’s a journey. I think, um, it’s a very emotional journey. That’s one thing I’ve realized, particularly over the past year, that running or particularly setting up a business in those early stages and everything is new. There’s so much uncertainty, there’s so many first, uh, you’re doing everything for the first time. You’re probably not very good at it because you’re learning, you’re making a lot of mistakes. It’s a very emotional journey where you have to face a lot of your own fears, a lot of your own insecurities, a lot of your own stories come up as you’re working with clients as well. Being a coach, very often I get triggered, my own stuff comes up. So it is a very emotional journey. But transitioning, I think, um, I don’t know if you’ve seen that curve, emotional journey of running a business. When you first start, you’re so excited and driven and you don’t really care that you’re stuck and everything. You’re making mistakes all over the place. And then you start making progress and you’re starting to really make an impact and things get a little bit harder and then you start getting to the next layer of growth and the next challenge, the next new thing you need to learn or do, and you need to up level. And I think with that next level comes I think you probably would have heard of saying another level, another devil. Right? So, we’ll have the next challenges. So, I think for me most, first and foremost, it has been an emotional journey.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah.

Kamila Wolyniec: Sorry.

Kirsty van den Bulk: No, I was just going to ask you what was the driving force for doing it?

Kamila Wolyniec: The driving force?

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah.

Kamila Wolyniec: I think initially, um, it evolved over time, but I think it always centered somewhere around meaning and purpose. I think for me, feeling like within the scope of my HR career, I just wasn’t able to really make an impact that I wanted to make. At the really deep transformational level, we felt very surfaced, even though I was working with people. H obviously is human centric, but there is so many constraints still in terms of what I can do, how I can use my own gift and then be creative and then help people really make a change in their life and feel like you’re really making an impact. And that was lacking for me. And I was with COVID as well. I think it made us all stop and think a little bit more what it is that we want from life. And for me, that was that moment I remember very well when I sat down with my laptop on a balcony, and I decided I need to do something else. I don’t know what it’s going to be, but it’s just going to be different. I need to be able to really and then it popped in my head. Coaching. It’s something he wanted to do for years. Never really gave it a chance. And that’s how it started, but then over time, that evolved in terms of why I want it, why I want to do what I wanted. And I think when the penny dropped for me was when I actually realized who it is that I want to help and who it is that I want to work with. Because that’s when I really connected deeply with my mission and what I’m doing and feeling like I can do this, I’m capable, and I have an obligation almost to go out and help those women because I was one of them.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And I love that because that’s exactly why and who I help, the stuff I do. And it’s really interesting because what I set up, I understand too much, but what I do now is I really help that. Holistic marketing, joined up communication. Um, so it’s like everything, it’s for your website, it’s your socials, and just putting it all together. And when I see it happen, the tingles, watch them say what they’re supposed to, not what they’re supposed to say, but talking from the heart on camera. But it’s the same website and it’s the same that on the Socials. Um, I’m dancing and I’m live. Um, this is my best year yet. And, um, we’re only in week three. Uh, but it is it’s when you hit that spot, isn’t it? It’s when you hit that alignment and you are walking in your shoes, doing what you are good at, and you know that you are empowering and helping other people. And that’s the power of coaching.

Kamila Wolyniec: Absolutely. It’s so incredibly powerful. And I have learned that to my own experience, of course, as well. And I think that’s where I started, where I’ve started to. And I think that goes like that for anyone in business. It’s a bit of a journey discovering what it is that you want to be focusing on because there’s so many different avenues you can take and who is it that you want to be helping. And I think really connecting again at that emotional level. And I think there was a bit of a denial within myself to initial resistance working with those women because I was triggered by it, because that was me a little while back. And I think there was a little bit of that emotional baggage that was still coming with it. But once I worked through my own stuff and I was able to see the impact of that, and I just felt like I have to share it.

Kirsty van den Bulk: As I go back to saying brave. Absolutely brave. Because putting yourself in a situation where you know you can be triggered is incredibly brave. But knowing that the result is that you’re going to help people, I’m going to applaud you on that because it’s just you. And just so people know, um, this is Kamila’s first life, so I’m going to applaud you on that as well, because it’s just amazing. You are shining here and that’s something that I feel is really important. Um, we don’t just launch business, we don’t just go and choose a career. There must have been people helped, uh, you along the way or inspired you.

Kamila Wolyniec: M definitely, um, I can’t really pinpoint to one particular person. I’m actually just so incredibly grateful for the community I’ve built through my coaching school. I think that’s probably where I have made connections that I believe are going to last a lifetime. People that are genuine, people that are, uh, mission driven, people that are there for very similar reasons or very conscious. People that want to make a difference in the world. And the levels of conversations we had and the support we offered one another has been amazing. It’s just really tough moments when I was doubting myself and questioning what I was doing, whether I’m good enough to do this. That’s when that support network is so important. Someone to bounce ideas from, just someone to challenge your thinking or just give you, uh, just one little tip or action step that you can take. So, it’s those connections that I really value through my journey, but of course through networking, meeting people like yourself, just getting exposed and being exposed to those beautiful people out there that are doing something for themselves and for the world and being able to see that, um, I’m, um, not alone in this. The challenges I’m going through are not unique to me necessarily. There are other people that have are going through it or have gone through it and it’s important to leverage that and to be able to reach out for support and raise your hand and say that things are a little bit hard right now. I need some help.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So important. I did that just before Christmas. I thought I was on my track, and I was bouncing along and everything was great. And then the wobble came in that I could see that the pipeline was looking really healthy for 23 and that was really scary. And people don’t necessarily realize that actually success is scary. Um, it’s all it wasn’t for a company because there’s other people that you can fall back on. But what if I get it wrong? What if I get that one bad review and then all those insecurities that you’ve, ah, managed to keep it hidden and a lid on, they just pop up like a jack in the box and it’s not going to go back in. And I needed some people to absolutely help me and catch me. And I was very lucky that I have that community. So, I totally resonate with everything you said there. Which brings me on to a lovely moment of you, um, talking about AHA, ah, moments. There must have been a few.

Kamila Wolyniec: Oh, m my gosh, there have been a lot of one. That’s probably the most impactful. Um, and I’m having a bit of a blank, but one that came to me very recently. Maybe I’ll just show the most recent one, which was in relation to which is why I think it’s relevant here as well. Because, um, everything you talk about on this, um, platform is why and why we’re doing what we do and connecting to that vision and being driven and feeling excited to move forward towards something meaningful. And I think for me, in the past couple of months, I’ve had a bit of say, a bit of a rough brush, a bit of a wobble myself. And I’ve had those moments when I questioned myself and that big vision, that big wire that I’ve set for myself, which was to really make that huge impact in the world, create a movement of women that support one another, that use their voice and shine and thrive. It’s beautiful, and I still connect to it deeply. But in terms of that day to day, I wasn’t quite connecting. So, I’ve given myself permission ahead. This moment that it doesn’t always have to be that sometimes your wire can be just as small as showing yourself that, you know what? I’m bigger than my limitations. I can do this. This is hard right now, but all I need to do is just get to the next week and my wife is just to show myself that I can, um and I can show up consistently every day, even though it doesn’t always feel great. And maybe I’m not quite sure where I’m going or so really understanding that it’s okay to meet myself where I am right now. And if I’m not feeling that deep connection to the big, distant vision at times, uh, that’s totally okay, because I know that I will, but I just need to keep acting and keep moving forward.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I love that, uh, because you’re giving yourself permission and it’s something that I think is really important. Giving yourself permission to fail, giving yourself permission to succeed. Giving yourself permission to like something or to not like something. So, I had a massive thing that happened 20 years ago. So, I was 34, so not quite 20 years ago. And that was a big, huge, um, life change. And that moment was when I came out of a relationship, and I had to learn, because I’ve been in the relationship for so long, and I had to learn who I was. I didn’t even know if I liked chili or if I didn’t like chili. I didn’t know if I like white wine or red wine. I didn’t know even if I liked wine. And it was one of those moments where I had to give myself permission to try everything, to explore everything. And it sounds really bad, but it wasn’t bad. It was just I got married very young, and, um, so I got married at 22 the first time, so your brain isn’t even formulated at that point. And at 34, I went no, I need to shake my life up and nothing to do with the man involved. He’s a good guy. But I, um, needed to shake my life up and change, and that exploration and giving myself permission to leave the relationship, that took a long time. Really long time. So, giving yourself permission, I think, is a really key thing. And I really say thank you for sharing it, because we spend our lives doing what everybody else says we should do, but we forget what we want to do. So, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I’m wondering, um, so you’ve come from Poland, you’ve lived in London, you’ve now set up a new business. Has there been any moment in your life where it was a pivotal point where you just went? Yes, absolutely. I mean, you came from Poland to the UK. What you’re always evolving. So, I’m just intrigued by the driving force of Kamila because you do drive. Feelings do jump into things. It’s really quite interesting. What is? I always talk about Alice moments. I’m just wondering if you have anything like that.

Kamila Wolyniec: Gosh.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Yeah, I know it’s a hard one.

Kamila Wolyniec: It is a hard one. I don’t know why this came to my mind, but I’m just going to go with it. Um, it’s really not that transformational, but I think it’s that first time where I again given myself permission to just go without knowing what’s on the other side. And it’s when I was back in the UK working in a job, and I got an opportunity to go to Spain and work there, uh, in a holiday resort, which was very exciting, very fun, but also required me to leave my stable job behind, not knowing where I’m going to come back to. Um, and just taking that risk and making that decision to just do it anyway, even though I have no idea what’s on the other side of what it’s going to look like. But I’m going to have a job when I come back. He was in it at the time of the Great Recession in the UK. I did it anyway. I had the best time. I’ve met some amazing people. And I think that was the moment when I realized you’ve got to have those experiences in your life. You’ve got to take risks. You’ve got to just pack up and go, sometimes not know where you’re going. Well, I knew where I was going, but I didn’t know what to expect. And I think that was the moment that I can sort of pinpoint where I started to really take those risks and make those decisions and not be fearful of change or not be fearful of not knowing what’s going to happen.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Thank you. I knew there’d be a pivotal moment somewhere where you were really brave. And I have no idea where that question came from either, because, just like you, I’m as vulnerable. Uh, when we go. Live. So, I love that. We’ve had some lovely comments this morning, so I’m going to flip over to there. So, we’ve had Hayley. Um I love Hayley Joseph. She’s as strong as I am and she’s like taking action and being intentional. Brilliant. Kemi Ah has joined us, and she said, hello ladies. Um, and then Jonathan has joined us and said morning listening while preparing my to do list for the day. I feel sorry for Jonathan right now because he’s probably inundated with people who have forgotten to do their tax. So, this is where you get to turn the tails. That’s not the word I wanted, but you get to turn it back because you’ve been in the hot seat for 29 minutes. So, you get to turn it back on to me and ask me a question that I am not, ah, expecting.

Kamila Wolyniec: It feels like m I’m on a hot seat to come up with a great question. Honestly, I’d love to know from you, given your expertise, Cassie, what is the number one thing we should look for that would help us embrace that confidence and do the thing which might be speaking in front of camera or just putting ourselves out there and taking the risk of being seen, being judged, getting it wrong? Do you have anything that you can share?

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, I’m going to go back to a singing teacher. I had called Niven Miller, who was absolutely brilliant, and he gave me the best piece of advice I have ever received in my life. And this was that if your heart and your head say yes, do it. So, if your heart saying one thing and your head saying another, don’t do it. If your heart and your head are aligned, then it’s the right course of action. And actually, sometimes you have to sit on the crossroads. And I’ve sat on the crossroads for a very long time and that crossroads is not a bad thing. That’s where you can actually start to think and plan and put in place some foundation. So, connecting with your heart and your head will align you to who you are. And when it comes to going on camera, you must be true to you, you must be true to the person you really are. So, the minute you try to put on a persona is the minute that the camera will pick up an untruth. So, you must stick by everything that you believe in and that means aligning your heart and your head but showing the vulnerability. So, if you’re nervous or scared to go on camera, if you admit that to yourself, then it’s actually easier to go on camera. So, when you get those emotions that are coming bubbling up and we were talking about this before we went live, that actually the nerves are here, but sometimes the brain’s going over there, but your nerves are okay, but your brain’s running ten to the dozen. That’s where you’ve got to align your heart and your head. And I did that by grabbing. I love this. So, everyone’s going to get it. Feel your heartbeat. Lift your finger, your thumb onto your heartbeat. So, feel it on your wrist. If you can’t feel it there, put it on your neck. Close your eyes, take a deep breath in through your nose. Hold it. Uh, and then let it out. Because your breath and your heart are your natural rhythm. So, if you are unaligned and you’re trying to push through and pushing through and push through, you’re never going to get back to being aligned. So, this comes back to heart, head and breath. So that is my way of confidence, is heart, head, breath. And then you can achieve and do anything. But you’ve got to have heart and your head aligned.

Kamila Wolyniec: I love that. Thank you for showing. I think this could probably apply to so many different things and it would improve our lives dramatically if we just learned to do that, uh, regularly.

Kirsty van den Bulk: How to stop. You get onto the life’s conveyor belt and you’re chunking, chunking, chunking, and you’re running, and you aren’t running. And everyone says, I want to get off the roller coast, I want to step aside. But actually, until you take the time to stop and stand and breathe and align yourself with your heart and your head, you’re always going to be juxtaposed and trying to fight. So, it was Niven Miner best advice. He said, listen to your heart, listen to your head. If it’s aligned, take your breath and you can start.

Kamila Wolyniec: Vince, love it.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. I cannot believe we have rattled on for 30. Um, it’s so fast. How did you feel now that you’ve done your first live?

Kamila Wolyniec: I feel good. Thank you. Thank you for being there. Still on my hands, virtually.

Kirsty van den Bulk: No problem. Well, as everyone knows, um, you can watch it on Catch up. Kamila is amazing. Kamila, can you drop your link, um, into your website, into the comments on LinkedIn so people can find you? Absolutely brilliant. Love to talking to you.

Kamila Wolyniec: Likewise. Thank you. Kirsty, thank you so much.