The Wise Why

When Liz and I spoke earlier this year and I asked her to join me on The Wise Why we had no idea how poignant this episode would be. This episode went live the Friday before Queen Elizabeth II state funeral.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Oh, yes, we are live.

Liz Taylor: Hello.

Kirsty van den Bulk: That, uh, was a bit fun this morning. I wasn’t sure the link was going to work. So, this morning, when we joined on The Wise Why by Liz Taylor.

Liz and I met earlier on this year, and I had no idea when I said to Liz, would you come on and talk about what you do, how person and poignant it would be at this moment in time. Um, I’m going to let Liz explain who she is and what she does. But if you’re listening, there will be some nuggets in here. Liz taught me a lot, and I will say I now have a lasting pair of attorneys, thanks to Liz and some advice from other people. So, Liz, the floor is yours. Please introduce yourself.

Liz Taylor: Thank you. Hi, Kirsty. Thank you for having me this morning. It is, um, making my heartbeat thinking about the fact that we had this conversation back in February and we booked in for today. It’s amazing, really, when you think about it. Um, I’m Liz, and, um, my background is I’m a company secretary and, um, trained as a company secretary and worked as the company secretary for over 30 years, um, still do in the charity sector. And then, um, like with a lot of things in life, we have that life changing moment. And, um, I had a number of those all in a very short space of time. And so, I realized what it was like at that time to have to deal with, um, sudden death of somebody and then dealing with their affairs and closing their life. And I knew then that, um, I wanted to make sure that other people would have support that I didn’t have at the time. Um, I learned a lot very quickly. Um, and I decided then to, um, quit my job and I went back to college and studied counselling and, um, law. I already had a legal background, but I then went and specialized in, um, English wells and probate. Um, and so my job now is to support people, um, after any kind of loss, in fact. Um, and now to try and encourage people, educate people about the impact of death and, um, to help people get their affairs in order before their loved ones have to. And then I can support the people that are left behind, um, when the inevitable happens.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And it’s incredible because I think back to when we first started talking and I just heard about a lasting power of attorney. I didn’t know what it was. And I’m 51, I had no will, no lasting power of attorney. I want to talk about this because this is important. I think it’s going to be slightly different ways why, but, um, you know, I’ve now my husbands now got a lasting power of attorney, and he is the main breadwinner. Now, I want you to explain to somebody well to the audience, why a lasting attorney financially is important.

Liz Taylor: I can do that very briefly. Um, I think there’s two things, two factual things. One is that only 60% of people adults in the UK, um, have a signed will. And at the moment, fewer than 20% of people have a power of attorney. And, um, it used to be about 10%, but in fact, actually, that has risen post COVID and, um, lockdown. But basically, most people think that, um, their next of kin, their spouse, is going to be able to talk for them if they were unable to talk for themselves. And actually, that isn’t the case. We do need a power of attorney. And there’s two powers of attorneys now. There’s one for health and there’s one for finance. Um, I learned about this, and I thought, I’ve got to do mine. It’s one of those things. And then you’ve got to think about who you’re going to ask, because obviously, um, with all of these roles, um, there’s got to be people that you trust and, um, people that are going to be capable and be willing. That’s the other thing. Um, just as an aside, um, so my life changing moment was when my niece phoned me. Um, it’s just over ten years ago, actually, to tell me that my brother had collapsed and had died. And, um, um, um, uh, I’m very grateful to, um, a friend of mine, Neil Matheson, who, um, came over and he got in my car, and he drove me up the M 40 in my car so that I would have my car. And then, bless him, he came back by train. But when I went into the house, I knew my brother study and I knew that he had a will. Um, and we’d had, like, vague conversations about it. Um, but I thought, um, anyway, basically, I opened it up and I was the executor. Um, so all of a sudden, I’ve got this tsunami of grief, um, of, uh, someone who was probably the closest. He meant a lot to me. Um, we had followed each other’s careers, we knew a lot about each other, fortunately. Um, but, yeah, there I am with this tsunami of grief, um, with his daughters, who have suddenly, um, had to face being in the room, um, being in a ne with, ah, their father, and then the tsunami of responsibility. Um, now, in his case, he didn’t have a power of attorney, but of course, actually, as it turned out, he didn’t need one because, um, they were unable to, um, resuscitate him and he died. But in my case, if I suddenly found myself in a situation that I can’t talk for myself, whether that’s because I’ve become incapacitated. Um, so just as an offshoot of that, my mum, um, had Alzheimer’s and died of Alzheimer’s. And in fact, my brother that died was her parameter. And I know he found that really difficult when we finally had to register that she was incapacitated, mentally incapacitated, to have that responsibility of having to do that. Um, and so I’m really aware through personal experience, of, um, the impact of not having the documents and also the importance of having them, but also the responsibility that comes with that. So, I thought long and hard about mine, and what I decided to do, um, with the support of friends, is I’ve got two for each. So, I have two people for finance and I have two people for health. And the reason I did that is because, um, I chose the people that know me well and who I hope will, um, know me and what my wishes would be if I couldn’t speak for myself, you know, I could get run. I have, um, a friend who, um, two weeks ago was, um, hit by a lorry on the M 25. Um, fortunately, she’s well and she’s in a lot of pain, but we just don’t know when these things are going to happen. And there’s 200,000 families out there, over 200,000 families that, um, suddenly had to deal with deaths through COVID. Um, there are also a lot of families that have had bereavements not through COVID. So, I think it’s important that we remember everybody. But I had a friend who, um, was executor to a gentleman. Um, and he died in lockdown. And, um, she suddenly is executor. But of course, we couldn’t do anything. We couldn’t go to see him. She couldn’t go to see him. The last time she saw him, she was having to wake goodbye to him as he went off in an ambulance. And then all of a sudden, she faces having to deal with, um, his affairs. And, um, it’s hard enough, um, when things are in place, um, I can assure you, it’s hard enough when things are, um, in place, and it’s really hard, um, when you’ve got nowhere to start.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So that’s what you do, isn’t it? You are, uh, the person that catches because we talked and I realized that thanks to our conversation, I realized that if something happened to Dennis, I would be devastated. I don’t know how I would cope. But more importantly, I would have to be emotionally strong for our daughter and she has to be my priority. So, the person I chose is very capable, very, um, business orientated, and would be almost not unemotional because he is very emotional. But I know that he will do with all of that. So, I can go and be with my daughter. And until I spoke to you, I didn’t know you offered this. This is incredible. Can you expand a little bit more about how you are there, holding and supporting and just guiding, just being there? I mean, it’s a very lonely and we must remember that right now, obviously, we’ve had the queen. Unfortunately, she died. She was 96. But obviously, King Charles is going through this, it’s very public, but there’s lots of people, as we were talking about yesterday, that also currently lost a loved one this week. And of course, it’s been overshadowed, but they are going through the same loss. So, could you expand a bit more about what you do and how you help?

Liz Taylor: I think the first thing, really, really important thing and message to say to everybody is that everybody’s situation is unique. So, we can’t go in and say this is a set of rules. I’ve owned an odd about, um, what would it be like to do, um, ah, some webinars and these are the first ten steps, et cetera. But it’s very hard because everybody’s situation is completely different. And, um, so what I would say to everybody is to remember that everyone’s situation and response is going to be unique. We make assumptions that, first, people are sad, people may actually be relieved. Um, death can bring all kinds of different emotions. It brings physical reaction. It brings emotional reaction. M. Um, so what I first of all do is I listen, and I really hear because people can listen. But actually, have we really sat and heard? Have we heard where the uncomfortable bits are? Um, have we really paid attention? And actually, as an aside, um, it’s made me think of something that in lockdown, I was, um, supporting people by telephone. So, I’d not seen these people, they’d not seen me. And it was a really different experience because first, silence. People don’t like silence. And on the phone, silence is really hard, a bit like now, if we were just to, you know, it’s, it’s he’s like, oh, let’s build the silence. Um, and you can’t see people’s faces, you can’t see how people are reacting, so you really have to listen. And I remember one day there was a lady and, um, she was sobbing her heart out. Um, and then all of a sudden, I heard her draw and there was a noise. Um, so I left the silence. I left the silence. And then I said, what is it? Where are you? What are you doing? Can you describe for me where you are and what are you doing? And she was, um, trying to hide away from her husband and children. They were all in a house in lockdown. And, um, she felt that she had no privacy, no space, and she was lying on the floor, um, next to her bed. And, um, so I asked her to describe what was around her and how was she feeling. And she said that she could see her father’s memory box. And then I heard a noise and I said, anyway, she reached for her father’s memory box, and we spent the whole time with her going through his memory box. And I invited her to take the things out and describe them to me and what they meant to her. And how they felt and what those memories were. So that was a real lesson in hearing, um, and listening. First of all, I listen, find out what the situation is, and try and help people work out what they need. So many sorry.

Kirsty van den Bulk: No, no, thank you for showing that, because it’s just brought a really important memory back to me about when my granny died. Um, I was driving on the M 40. I pulled the car over, and, uh, I didn’t get any time to when I got home. Um, and at that point, my daughter bought it about a year, maybe 18 months. And I never got any time, never got any peace. And I remember it was about a year about a year later, I suddenly fell to pieces. The house was silent, and I could let out that grief. And wow, it’s a really powerful moment to talk about silence and to talk about listening. Um, so thank you. I just wanted to acknowledge what you just shared there and say thank you for sharing it, because it actually triggered me. So, thank you.

Liz Taylor: Thank you. So, yes. So, I basically, I find out what people’s stories are. Some people. I had a gentleman last year. I think he might be listening. Um, and he his was very much it was a sudden death. His former wife had, um, died suddenly. And can you imagine the complications of that situation where, you know, his daughters, um, phoned him with this news, and, you know, he’s the ex-husband. He’s not the current husband. He doesn’t have the right to go into that house and sort things out. It’s not his job. But of course, his job is actually to look after his daughters who just lost their mother. Um, and he was very focused on, I’m going to say, um, I love him, by the way. He’s gorgeous, and it’s interesting. Uh, but he was in the intellectual part of his brain, and that was right. What have I got to do? And, um, what about the funeral? And, um, what about the inheritance tax? And we literally spent the first session together, um, with a piece of paper, trying to work out what the inheritance tax would be. Now, one thing I will say with, um, the subject that I deal with is I have a lot of pushbacks from people who say, God, you must be really depressed. Um, what a horrible job. Um, and it’s not at all. And I laugh then, and I know if he’s listening, he will know that that’s with respect, because what I always, um, remember and make sure that people are aware is that we have respectful humour, and this subject isn’t all, um, miserable, um, and hard. I was thinking about, um, some fun times. That some memorable times. Um, and it’s hard to remember them when you have such a tsunami of responsibility and all the work that’s got to be done. But I do remember when my dad, we were at my brother’s house and blessed him. He was 86. And, um, my nieces, it was something like there was a shooting star or the satellite was going over, I can’t remember. And so we went outside and it was in, um, uh, September, August, and we rely on the grass. We lay my dad down on the grass on a blanket at the age of 86, all pretending to look for this thing. And I remember him saying to me, Elizabeth, I can’t see anything. So, you know, there are moments in this in these terrible times that we have to deal with. And, um, that can be very, um, can be good humoured and, um, can be fun, too. So, with my work, where I have supported people after someone has died, and that’s both emotionally, um, I teach people skills to deal with loss, um, of loss of all kinds, by the way, that can be. Um, I look at their whole loss history. Um, they might come to me because someone’s died, but what I do is I look at their whole loss history and we see where there’s been some patterns, and, um, we go through a process where they can communicate the things that they wish they had said. Um, all things that have been different and better and more of, um, but that’s through all loss, whether that’s divorce, change of career, um, it could be the loss of the fact that you didn’t have a relationship with a parent or a sibling or a friend. Um, so loss is broad ranging in my world. Um, but I also have helped people with probate. So, the unexpected executor that suddenly has got this like me, um, doesn’t know where to start. Um, the good thing is because I now know where to start, because I’ve had to do it, and then I subsequently trained in the law behind it. Um, I do know where people need to start. Um, so through that, what I came to realize is that the biggest challenge is that people don’t have their affairs in order. Now, in my case, my brother, and my father, because my father died shortly after my, um, brother and I was executed to both. Now, both were relatively they were organized people, but my brother had been executive to my mum and, um, something hadn’t been finished. So, there I am. Um, we are faced with a family, with a situation that my dad died and actually something that should have been dealt with two deaths ago, in essence. Um, now we solved it, but there are, ah, things that will come up that you won’t expect. Um, and what I found in that work is that, um, it means that people don’t have time to grieve. They face this tsunami of hardship. I did know that assets were frozen, but I didn’t really understand what that meant. I didn’t know that we couldn’t sell his house. Um, I didn’t know that I would have to pay inheritance tax before we can even get access to any money. I didn’t know that we wouldn’t have any money to pay for his daughter’s wedding. Um, but what I did know is when I arrived, is that um, because he wasn’t married, all his pensions had died, um, with him. I knew because of my background as a company secretary, um, I knew that the car wasn’t insured on the drive anymore and I knew that the house wasn’t insured anymore because all his assets were frozen. So, there were things that I did know that I was immediately able to attend to. Um, but there was an awful lot that I didn’t know. Um.

Kirsty van den Bulk: I think there’s a lot of things there too, that people wouldn’t know that are listening. They wouldn’t. And I don’t want to run on and not go back to that because I think it’s really important. Um, I certainly wouldn’t know that if my parents were to pass away. I’m lucky I’ve still got both mum and dad. Hi, if you’re listening, uh, love you lots. Uh, so, yeah, uh, everybody still adores my mom and dad. Um, and I’m very lucky. Dad’s 80 next week and Mum is 75. But I had no idea that if one of them had passed and the other one then passed later, the house wouldn’t be insured.

Liz Taylor: Well, because the bank account is frozen. So, if they paid the insurance by direct debit, then the direct debit stops.

Kirsty van den Bulk: And that’s what I mean about the impact. And when you’re going through that, you haven’t got time to even start. It’s the last thing on your mind, isn’t it?

Liz Taylor: It’s uh, funny. A friend of mine, her, huh, uncle’s, um, wife, died last, uh, year. And I, um, remember her phoning me and saying everything’s in my aunt’s name and even the broadband was in her name, not his. So, the WiFi got cut off. Well, guess what? You might need a bit of WiFi when you’re dealing with all of this. And quite often people won’t talk to you. The mobile companies are a, uh, challenge, a big challenge. Um, yeah, you’re having to deal with all these institutions and there has been a lot more training, um, with the banks, there has been a lot more training. But I can tell you now that, um, I was supporting somebody recently and yeah, the bank didn’t know what to do. And um, it’s a bit like when my dad died, the nurse that came to the bedside, it was the first time she’d ever had someone die better. And um, when I went into the bank recently with somebody, um, it was the first, um, time that this lady in the bank had ever had somebody come in and she didn’t know what to do. So, I kind of explained to her what she needed to do. Um, so, yes, there are lots of things people don’t know. We think we do. I think the biggest thing is for me is that, um, uh, some people have a will, and they say to me, well, we’ve got a will, everything will be fine. But what about all the things like, we live in a digital age, what about the passwords? I didn’t know what my brother’s password was or why would I know what his passwords were? Um, and, ah, immediately I’ve got the challenge of having to find out information about him and to report to the authorities that you must do. And I haven’t got access to anything, so that’s why I have now, um, joined the organization and trained us. Before I go. Um solutions. Facilitator because we believe that, um, end of life planning is important, and we want to try and demystify this word of death and encourage people, support people to get their personal, legal and financial affairs in order before their loved ones have to, um and we do it with lots of different tools to help people. It doesn’t have to be a sad affair. Um, in fact, I just like to mention Dr. Catherine Mannings. Um, she is a retired, um, palliative care doctor and she has written an amazing book called with the End in Mind. And, um, I read it as part of my training as an, um, end of life facilitator. And, um, she has a post on Facebook at the moment where she talks about the Queen dying. And she talks about the fact that the Queen has shown us that, um, the process of dying can be, um, peaceful and organized. That the Queen had got her affairs in order. One of the things we deal with, uh, when we’re helping people is we ask people to think about secrets. Um, are there secrets that people may not want to find, or they wouldn’t want people to find? Um, I sit here and it’s hard to say it, but I will say it because it’s important for people to know that I know things about my brother that I wish I didn’t. And I have to. Not because he was a terrible person, he wasn’t at all. But they’re private things that I had to read, uh, or I read and became aware of that actually. Um, I know they have to stay in my heart.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Mhm.

Liz Taylor: Um, so we try and encourage people to think about all aspects of end of life. And the Queen, she has shown us that as we age, it’s okay to step back. She has taken control; she’s got her affairs in order. Um, she has made it known what her wishes are. Um, she is working right to the end with a great victory, and she was in the place that she loved. And so, what I invite people to do with this process is to think about all those things. What do you need to get in order. What would you really want? What would you want your loved ones not to find? What would you want them to know? Um, and do this in a safe place. We offer a safe place because we know that it’s a difficult subject. We know that there’s a challenge about who will talk to you about it. Um, and so we’re here. I’m here, and I love it.
Kirsty van den Bulk: Thank you so much for sharing. Um, I’m actually going to go to some of the comments immediately. Then I want to ask you about your singing. So, I’m going to come on to the singing. I know, but it is the wise why? And we’ve been talking for quite some time. We’ve actually been talking for 24 minutes.

Liz Taylor: That’s surprisingly enough.

Kirsty van den Bulk: So, I want to make sure that we are we finish on a light tonight. Uh, so we’ve had a lovely Claire. Uh, Claire, I’m going to try and say Leroy has joined us. Paula. Thank you, Paula. Uh, Loris has joined us and shared. Uh, this feels like such the right time to be talking about this. And yes, there is no coincidence here at all. Um, Paula, thank you for saying that loss comes in many ways and that person resonates. I’m a divorcee. I have lost people that were very dear to me and lost features very much. And we have to embrace it. The way that we deal with losses, as you were touching on it does become cyclical. So, thank you for sharing that from my heart. Katrina has said, Morning Lad is such an important topic. And thank you, Liz, for your compassion and sharing your experiences. The blend of practical advice and guidance and emotional support that you offer is so unique and valuable. Uh, one of my best friends, Luke, love you to learn some subjects, and I think you’re right. It helps to keep the burden uh, uh, it helps to keep the burden off your family if you take care of your affairs. Is there a checklist or something one can work for you? If you’ve got anything that you can add into the chat or a link to something, please do at the end of it. Sight for conversation. Informative session. So brilliant feedback there. But I do want to touch on a couple of things before we run out of time. Um, I want to touch on things that resonate with us, but I also want to hear a bit about your singing and also the poem that really resonated with you.

Liz Taylor: Thank you. So, um, one of the things that, um, happened to me is I kind of lost my voice because in all this tsunami of responsibility, we lose ourselves because we are burdened by this heavy weight of closing down other people’s lives. And it’s very hard then to work out where your own life is. And, um, there was lots of things that happened to me at the time that meant that actually I had to move. Um, my losses came as a tsunami, um, one after the other. Um, and so I moved, and I realized that I’d kind of lost my voice. Um, there’ll be people listing that will probably think that that’s hilarious. By the way, I never spoke to anybody until lowest four. I used to hide behind my mother’s skirts. She used to drive her mad. Anyway, I joined the Royal Surrey Choir. Um, um, and it changed my life because, um, singing has, um, brought me friendships, it’s brought me joy, it’s brought a new skill. Um, it started with when I did my counselling course. Um, uh, there’s a late, a friend of mine who introduced me to something called the Choir from Scratch. And, um, four of us sang the messiah at the Albert Hall. Um, and I had my grandfather’s copy of The Messiah, um, that was very old by the way, and a bit crumbly on the pages. And we learnt The Messiah together and we sang it at the Albert Hall, and we’ve done it pretty much every year since then. Um, and then that led to me joining the Raw Sari Choir. And we have a laugh, we start it back on Wednesday. We do concert every six months. Of course, we haven’t been able to um, we just did our first concert for the first time in two and a half years back in July. Um and um I love it. Yeah, it’s helped me find a voice.

Kirsty van den Bulk: Brilliant.

Liz Taylor: I was so pleased.

Kirsty van den Bulk: earlier we were talking yesterday about poems or excerpts in the Bible because I had an excerpt and let me get this correct one Corinthians 13 at my uh, wedding, because it had been at my uh, grand, grandad’s wedding and also read at the funeral. And I love this moment of life and death and how important it is because a wedding is a celebration, but also death is a celebration of that person’s life. But you’ve also got something that’s important to you.

Liz Taylor: Well what you raised, and this is really important message for people is that we need to remember that different things trigger people. And um, I watched um, William, and Harry um, walk behind that coffin the other day and it’s hard for me to say it out loud, so goodness will be like for them because all I could think of was what would be taking them back to the time that they had to do that before. And what does that trigger? Now, triggers don’t necessarily take us back to a bad place, but there will be triggers. And what I’m saying is, when you are with people, listen and hear, be aware of what those triggers might be. And for me, the trigger was the flowers. And it uh, took me back to the flowers, um, on my parents, ah, my mum and dad and my brother and my best friend who died. At a similar time, um, um, on their coffins, um, there’s triggers, and it takes us to those places. And I just think it’s important that people look after themselves. I hope that the royal family are looking after themselves and people are recognizing that, there will be lots of stuff going on. And I think it’s really important to remember. I, um, remember when my brother died that I was under quite a lot of pressure from certain quarters that we had this great big, um, funeral, uh, at Birmingham Cathedral. And somebody wanted me to hire the Belfry. And it was not his style at all. It was a very private man. And there we have the royal family who have lost their mother and a grandmother and a great grandmother, et cetera, et cetera. But it becomes a very public affair. Um, so I would like to say that it’s really important that we know triggers. But also, um, I was thinking about, um, poems and things that I remembered, and I haven’t said this for a long time, um, and people are going to think, oh, because she’s still going on about that thing, but it’s really important. So, when my brother died, um, my niece was we were trying to plan the funeral, and, um, my dad was sat there. My dad was a, uh, local, uh, Methodist preacher for over 60 years. So, he had a faith and he was helping us with hymns and readings, et cetera. And then one of my nieces said, oh, well, we need to have so and so and so. And I was like, there was so much noise going on. I said, Hang on a minute. Claire spoken. What is it? What is it? So, she played a song that was, um, one of his favourites. And, um, my father, because of where it took place, it’s the background music to the Epcot Fireworks, by the way. And my father turned to me he bowed his head and I’ll never forget you he said to me.

Kirsty van den Bulk: No, don’t.

Liz Taylor: Worry, it’s all right he said to me, Elizabeth, he said, that is better than any prayer. You must include it. So, we did. But subsequently, I actually decided this, um, the words to this at my friend’s daughter’s wedding, because, again, as you say, it can have so many different meanings. So, I’d just like to remember all the people today, um, that have had bereavements this week. Um, and in particular, the royal family. I wish them, um, I hope that they get to say their private goodbyes as well. And I thought we’d end with the words absolutely. And it goes I might just have to look down I’ll try and remember it with the stillness of tonight there comes a time to understand to reach out and touch tomorrow and take the future in our hands we can see a new horizon built on all that we have done and our dreams begin another thousand circles around the sun we go on to the joy and through our tears we go on to discover new frontiers we go on moving forward with the current of the years we go on with your spirit with the Queen spirit in all of and her example born to run moving on ever on with each rising sun to each new day we go on I don’t.
Kirsty van den Bulk: Think there’s anything more to say. Thank you.

Liz Taylor: Thank you.